Pro-Life or Pro-Choice (Abortion)

[PeregrineFalcon]

I am posting this in response to some discussions in the End of the World Thread (http://www.gamehavoc.com/viewtopic.php?t=666). I did not want to go off topic in there so I thought it important to move this question over to its own thread. Since we were talking about religion and 'Monument' was talking about choice and g-d's purpose for us it brought up the question of pro-choice of pro-life. In 'Monuments' post he speaks strongly of religion and to me appears to be a strong believer in it.

As for the purpose of life, it is to enjoy it. That was God's purpose for creating humanity. So why can't we enjoy it now? Because everyone has a CHOICE. Right now you can considering it the testing grounds on whether you will recieve the ability to enjoy life the way it was planned after the Apocalypse, or whether your soul should lie dormant forever. So why are we suffering because of our choices? It's like those sayings go - You don't know happiness without ever being sad, you don't know pleasure until you've received pain, you don't know about what life is until you have experienced death.

And hell - is not a burning fire. Reading the context of the Big Black Book denotes that hell was simply a place that was unliving. When Jonas was swallowed by a whale(not a shark), he asked to be delivered from hell. When people are put to rest in their graves they are in hell. And conversely, the exact criteria for people actually entering to heaven is unknown, but know that ONLY 144,000 will be entering the "Pearly Gates"; however, it's a little obvious that those who serve His will, probably already have season tickets.

Im curious to which side those people on these forums who are strongly religious take on the issue.

Now I know that most of us here are male, but this question still affects us AND allows for us to convey some of our morals and ethics to the rest of the community. This question is not just targeted to females.

My stance on the issue: I vote Pro-Choice. For me it comes down to freedom, and this countries idea that as a citizen we have a choice in deciding our fate. To me an abortion (done early on in pregnency) is a choice that woman should have. By passing a pro-life passed law i feel it would be a backstep for womans rights and moreover a negative to this countries ideals that "All [men/women] are created equally".

[stormFury]

If that kid is born to a mother and/or father who doesnt want him he's going to have an incredibly ****ed up and depressed life anyway. Its as simple as that. And why is there talk of passing laws against abortion and gay marriage? What the **** ever happened to seperation of church and state?

[Canon]

Well... sadly, 90+% of the world practices some type of religion... and those religions tend to steer the course of the individual's moral development and whatnot... So, with such a large amount of the population under such influence, it's very difficult to seperate what you believe to be moral and ethical(from what you learned in sunday school) versus the beliefs of some poor college kids that made a mistake.

[ferret]

My quick opinion on this until some nice long posts are made: I am pro-choice. I am not pro-abortion. I would never personally consider it an option for me or my family, but neither do I consider it my place to decide for all women in the nation/world what THEIR chocie would be.

Its not my body, not my baby, etc. This is a personal choice, and no one has the right to make that choice for someone else.

[Canon]

Well said.

[PeregrineFalcon]

My quick opinion on this until some nice long posts are made: I am pro-choice. I am not pro-abortion. I would never personally consider it an option for me or my family, but neither do I consider it my place to decide for all women in the nation/world what THEIR chocie would be.

Its not my body, not my baby, etc. This is a personal choice, and no one has the right to make that choice for someone else.

Agreed, this is the side that myself and many other males probably take. I think this makes the most amount of sense, but the problem is that the decisions would be made by policitians that are male, so herein lies the problem :-(. Thats why I think everyone needs to have a voice to help support the fact that woman should infact HAVE this choice.

[Kamie]

For obvious reasons, I can only echo what Ferret said.

And I would like to add.

If pro-life laws were passed, then there have to be more protections and help for pregnant women. Pregnancy litterally changes your life before the baby is born. You no longer function the same way that you used to. And if you are going to take away a woman's right to chose what happens to her body, then you need to support her as she goes through these sometimes debilitating changes. That means improving the adoption and foster care systems, having better more affordable health care, making maternal leave PAID and a bit longer, allowing pregnant women to go on disability if they are forced onto bedrest, and all in all better support for families and children and pregnant women.

[Dissman]

As for abortion, i'm not for it, but i'm not against it enough to outright ban it... although, i think that partial-birth abortion & late term abortion in general is unnecissarily cruel & should not be allowed, unless the life of the mother is at stake.

[squeak]

Womens body, womens choice. However, I believe that a FATHER can veto that choice. If a women was preg by me, and wanted an abortion, I wouldnt let her. My kid as well, my responsibility. If she wants me to take care of her for 9 months and have nothing to do with the baby afterwords, so be it.

[Princess]

Where's the option that says "Pro-Life except under certain circumstances?" I am a believer in pro-life myself, but in cases of rape/incest/mother's life in danger/etc. I am pro-choice. Ultimately, I think people should make their own decisions, but personally I believe in pro-life.

[acme420]

Why should the government be able to enforce morals on individuals?

if a woman wants to have an abortion or keep the child thats her moral decision no one elses. ****'n government is way too big.

[Low-Light]

Yea its all about choice.. Man in Downtown today... There were all these Abortion Signs... Showin fetues all decayed and stuff.. I wasnt sure if there was a Pro and Anti abortion or if it was just anti...

I really think they should just freeze the embryos and save em for later or donate them or put em up for adoption.. I dont know how much it is... or really how much more safer. But i know its been done and seems to work fine. I find that the best sloution other than not having sex at all.

Its all about the cryo freezeeee.

[squeak]

I think one of the reasons the gov steps in is because they dont know if the baby has rights under the us constitution or not. I mean, between the first and third trimasters there are huge differences in the development, but where do you draw the line between a clump of cells and a human being, a US citizen, that has protection under the constitution.

[Low-Light]

Yea exactly... If they were to abort it.. before a fetus was even formed.. or something. There would be no brain. Just mussssh and slimly stuff. No where a human yet. Just in the process.

I still say choice and better yet Freeze theM! any comments on my freezing idea?

[KODIAK]

After having my son I can only say pro-life..... Any time any thought of abortion comes into my head I just picture not having Ethan.... I Say if there are pro-life laws passed, Women still have a choice. this choice always seems to be overlooked, but it is simple, PRACTICE SAFE SEX. there you have it. They will always have a choice. I can understand in case of rape, incest, and life threatening, although with medicine today there really aren't many cases of threatened lives that an abortion would help. I also understand the argument that, what is better? having abortion or bringing a baby into this world with no love, money, support, teenage mother, terrible life, etc...... I dont know the answer. I just personally feel like it is murder the second a baby has a heartbeat.

[Dissman]

I think one of the reasons the gov steps in is because they dont know if the baby has rights under the us constitution or not. I mean, between the first and third trimasters there are huge differences in the development, but where do you draw the line between a clump of cells and a human being, a US citizen, that has protection under the constitution.

As a person, i hate user definable rights/crimes, and abortion definately falls under that category... The mother literally decides whether the thing inside her is a child and subject to the protections under the law, including such things as fetal homicide (Lacy & Connor's law) and other civil actions... or if the thing inside her is a fetus, which she can kill without second thought.

I hate laws like this... it should be one or the other, not both, not a combination of the two... Either what's inside is her right to choose, and should not be subject to the right to choose... or it's a child, and should be protected by law... we absolutely need a clear definition here... maybe a certian part of the pregnancy...

The funny thing is, if Lacy Peterson was still alive, it would not have been a crime for her to abort Connor at christmastime, even at that late stage, but for Scott to kill Connor is a crime.

It's like the one i had used on me before... Two women, both pregant, are driving to an abortion clinic... Woman A, the driver, is driving her friend, Woman B, to the abortion clinic to have an abortion... they are at the same stage of pregnancy, only a few days apart... on the way, a drunk driver, comes left of center, and hits the car, both fetuses are killed (both womena are unhurt otherwise0, what would you charge the drunk with, one count of fetal homicide?? Two, None?? It's inconsistancies in the law that are the one thing that bothers me the most.

[Kamie]

Fertility Clinics that specialize in Invitro Fertilization kill more embroys in a day than any abortion clinic could do in a year.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Where's the option that says "Pro-Life except under certain circumstances?" I am a believer in pro-life myself, but in cases of rape/incest/mother's life in danger/etc. I am pro-choice. Ultimately, I think people should make their own decisions, but personally I believe in pro-life.

So then by this description you ARE Pro-Choice. Certain circumstances is what I stand by also. I dont think the rest of us, myself included, believe that people should think it is ok to get pregnant numerous times and think they can just have an abortion. An abortion is THE WORST way to practice birth control if you are sexually active.

[PeregrineFalcon]

After having my son I can only say pro-life..... Any time any thought of abortion comes into my head I just picture not having Ethan.... I Say if there are pro-life laws passed, Women still have a choice. this choice always seems to be overlooked, but it is simple, PRACTICE SAFE SEX. there you have it. They will always have a choice. I can understand in case of rape, incest, and life threatening, although with medicine today there really aren't many cases of threatened lives that an abortion would help. I also understand the argument that, what is better? having abortion or bringing a baby into this world with no love, money, support, teenage mother, terrible life, etc...... I dont know the answer. I just personally feel like it is murder the second a baby has a heartbeat.

Now this is a grim statement, so for those light of heart please dont read.

What if you have a 14 year old daughter (passed through puberty) who is raped by a lunatic now she is pregnant. What do you say to this? Also, what if this lunatic (knock on wood) has HIV/AIDS and passes it to your 14 yr old daughter and to her new unborn child? Then do you believe Pro-Life is correct?

[stormFury]

If you dont want the baby, donate the fetus to stem-cell research so we can cure diseases and what have you. Rather than it growing up depressed and committing mass murder/suicide, it will help find cures for various diseases.

[steaLer]

...I am a believer in pro-life myself, but in cases of rape/incest/mother's life in danger/etc. I am pro-choice. Ultimately, I think people should make their own decisions, but personally I believe in pro-life.
same.

[ferret]

Despite the poll being 13 to 6, I think everyone is pretty much in agreement. Its not our right to choose for someone else, whether or not it is the choice we'd personally make.

[Athena]

Let's see, where to start...


I'm pro-Life, I agree with a lot of you about in certent cases. I totally agree with Kamie's statement about it's hard for a mother-to-be to get the help she needs. The work place doesn't make it easy for father/mother-to-be to be pregnant or have the baby.

As to freezing the fetus for later on down the road, not pratically (costs to much money). When you are talking going to a Fertility Clinic, you are talking a lot of money. This is a lot of costs involved here.

I do know this it's they need to do a lot more research in the abortion area, because I feel they are missing the big picture here. I bet if you asked a woman that has been though an abortion, you will be surprised at the answer she gives you. Ask her whether she would do it again or would she recommend it to someone else. There are places on the internet you can find these answers out yourself.

One last thing I will leave you all with...

I can hear her talking with a friend
I think it's all about me
Oh how she can't have a baby now
My mommy doesn't see

That I feel her breath
I know her voice
Her blood it flows though my heart
God you know my greatest wish is that
We'd never get apart

I sang this in church once and I could not finish this song with out crying and there was not a dry eye in the place.

Athena

PS. This song is called "A Baby's Prayer", it's from the unborn baby's view point.

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

I appreciate your sentiments, Athena. However this is exactly the thing that pro-lifers want you to feel. I have a lot more to say on the subject, but it will have to wait til late. It's my wife's B-day today. Suffice it to say, that instead of touching may heart with that last bit, you turned my stomach.

[ferret]

http://gamehavoc.com/viewtopic.php?t=82&start=0

[steaLer]

i think she just wanted to show us the mother-child bond.

[squeak]

If there isnt a line drawn for when a baby is a BABY, then everytime a women has her period and evertime a guy... "you know"... could be considered (at an extreme) murder.

[Athena]

Stealer, yes basically I was in a way as well as no one really thinks at the point of when a baby is a "baby" like Marsh said. Do we say it's a baby when the heart starts to beat or when it starts to have it's on brain waves?

I wanted to bring up the fact that a lot of ppl don't ask what a woman really goes through after she has had one. If you really want to hear one close to home then read the post I made on the link ferret gave you. Then you can tell me if I turn your stomach. Like I said you really have to look at the big picture of the abortion issue(s).

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

First of all, I apologise if I seemed to aim that crack at you Athena. That was not my intent. I just really dislike trite little poems like that. Reminds me of a lot of the crap spam I get in my email every day. They have a lot of words, but say very little.

I, too am split on the abortion issue. I, too have had some experience with it first hand - well, I guess it would have to be second had now wouldn't it. When I was 15 I got a girl pregnant. Both of our parents got involved and the decision was made by THEM to abort the pregnancy. I have no feelingseither way on that instance as I was just a kid and was more interested in getting high at the time. Then when I was about 20 or so, my girlfriend got pregnant. I'm not convinced it was mine but paid for the procedure anyway - the first part of this sentence explains the reason pretty well. When I met my current wife, she was pregnant with the child of another married man. I helped her through the ordeal and we've been together ever since (13 years). We had our son about 2 years later. She got pregnant about 4 years later and didn't feel we could support a second. She (more so than I) decided to end the pregnancy. I had a really hard time swallowing that one. Less than 2 years later she got pregnant with our 2nd child. This one might have wound up in a sink if it weren't for a small complication she had which required an ultasound. Once she saw it moving on that TV screen, there was no way she could come to that decision. For this I am eternally grateful.

There you have it. A little history of me and my penis (sorry, couldn't resist). The reason I've shared this is so that one might not say that I don't have the right to an opinion as I don't know what it's like. I do, very much so. I was there for all of the procedures and say first hand what it can do to the woman's psyche - and in turn my own.

So I am really on both sides of the arguemant. I am for the child as well as for the mother. As has been mentioned earlier in this topic, as well as several other's I've posted in both here and on FCS, the question is: When is a baby a baby? I believe that it is when the life form makes the transition from a lump of flesh to a being that can consciously (or subconsciously) be aware of itself and react to its surroundings. Up until that point, the mother has the right to choose. Once that point is reached, the mass of cells is a person and has as much right to survive as the mother.

When that point is exactly, I can't say. I am not a doctor (where's limbic? he should weigh in on this). All I can do is reflect upon personal experience, remembering how my son literally jumped around in the womb at the sound of my voice. That's a person.

As for late term abortions, it's murder. "What about if the pregnancy threatens the mother's life?", you ask. Then priority should ALWAYS defer to the child. The mother had the chance to end it earlier on and didn't, for whatever reason. In fact the whole time, the mother has been the ONLY one who had any choices in the matter. The choice to have sex and the choice whether or not to keep it. Even it the choice to have sex was missing due to rape, the second still exists. the point is, that the child has ABSOLUTEY no choice in the matter - until it's a baby. Then its interests need to be paramount to any others, even if it means sacrificing the life of the mother.

The real problem we need to be addressing is why people are taking the risk of having kids that they have no intention of keeping? That's the real travasty here. Jesus! It's not a big mystery that if you keep your pants on you don't get pregnant. To hell with birth control. The only 100% method of avoidance is not to get it wet. This goes back to proper parenting of kids going through adolescence. I believe that the VAST majority of the problems facing our society today started a generation or 2 ago. But that's another debate...

That's my stance.

[Dissman]

Note: Spaces added for emphasis & seperation

Young DVP]As for late term abortions, it's murder. "What about if the pregnancy threatens the mother's life?", you ask. Then priority should ALWAYS defer to the child.

The mother had the chance to end it earlier on and didn't, for whatever reason.

In fact the whole time, the mother has been the ONLY one who had any choices in the matter. The choice to have sex and the choice whether or not to keep it. Even it the choice to have sex was missing due to rape, the second still exists. the point is, that the child has ABSOLUTEY no choice in the matter - until it's a baby.

Then its interests need to be paramount to any others, even if it means sacrificing the life of the mother.

Here's where i disagree, i believe as someone who could be a father one day, that i would want priority to defer to the mother... because i would NOT want to raise the child without her. Issues can crop up late in the pregnancy and i believe that the decision should be made mutually between the mother and the father as to who to save and it should not be murder.

The child still has no choice in the matter, it may be a baby, but if it comes to who to save, it still has no say... putting it first i think is wrong... it should be up to the parents as to who to save. This is not a decision that i think should be made in the law.

But this is me.