Filipino hostage to be beheaded in 72 hours

[unrequited]

http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5611457

[Low-Light]

geez, will they ever stop.

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

No, they won't. Until they are stopped. I'm not sure if or how that can be accomplished either.

[Dissman]

They might stop if we'd stop talking making a big deal about it... they are doing this to get attention... if they didnt GET any attention they might stop.

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

I would agree, Dissman if we were talking about a kid sticking out his/her tongue at us. This is kind of hard to ignore. in fact, if we did then we have as little (or less) regard for human life than they do.

[Dissman]

Young DVP]I would agree, Dissman if we were talking about a kid sticking out his/her tongue at us. This is kind of hard to ignore. in fact, if we did then we have as little (or less) regard for human life than they do.

Your right... and this may be a bit of a flip-flop, but they should report it, but if they dwell on it for days, they have BLOOD on their hands... the terrorists realize if they do this, they'll get press play, and they'll keep doing it until they dont get the attention they want, and then they'll find something else to offend our senses..

They started with simple kidnappings, they've moved to beheadings when kidnapping wasnt enough, we've had our share of beheadings and they arent enough, what's next... taking a woman prisioner, raping the s**t out of her, taking pictures with thumbs up and then killing her?

They know, that if we succeed in Iraq with starting a democracy, and it works, they are TOAST, i've seen Quieda documents posted online that also agree with this, they are offending our senses, hoping that we do what we always have under previous administrations, run when things get tough, and that's because the previous adminstration had no moral clarity and ran from any situation when the poll numbers went down... We ran from Somalia, we ran from Haiti, the moment we took casualties... we were gone, that's because the previous administration had no backbone, or moral clarity... this is why the arab community sees us as a paper tiger, because under clinton... WE WERE.

This is nothing more than a public relations game to them... one we shouldnt play.

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

This is nothing more than a public relations game to them... one we shouldnt play.

I agree with everything you've said here, with the exception of your last comment. I DO think we should play, not 'play around'. We're not taking it to their doorstep enough. I realize that this must be tough to do due to the very nature of these organizations (they don't really have a 'base' we can attack). Perhaps we need to put those that we capture on public display with a list of what that person is responsible for. Leave small rocks nearby for passers-by to throw at them. We don't want to stoop to their level of barbarism, but we need to do something to get in their face.

[acme420]

we should find out where abu al zarkawi is, then send 2000 troops there to kill him and after 6 months of bombing and terrorizing the innocent civilians we should invade some other country....(like switzerland...those bastards are just begging for it) so that everyone will forget all about zarkawi and the first country we went on a bombing run in.

it will work, the proof is in the pudding.

[Princess]

They might stop if we'd stop talking making a big deal about it... they are doing this to get attention... if they didnt GET any attention they might stop.

Hmm. I thought it had something to do with the fact that this is how things have been handled in that culture for almost 1,000 years. There used to be raids that would happen that involved stealing from different towns. Mostly, being in a relatively Muslim culture, people were never allowed to kill anyone from the town. If someone had killed someone else from the town, the murderer would not be the one who was punished. Instead, they would send out someone else from their raiders to take the blame. The consequence? Beheading. As much as our culture just loves to assume that they're doing it for attention, maybe we should spend some time learning about their culture to figure out why they behave the way they do. In no way whatsoever is it right, but when you're trying to find a killer, it's better to understand your enemy =P.

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

it will work, the proof is in the pudding.
I know this is off topic, but I just HAD to say... Dude! You don't KNOW just how long I've been looking for that PROOF! I thought I left it in my other pants only to find out it was in the PUDDING all along! Sheesh! I almost ATE it, too! Dodged THAT bullet!

[ferret]

Don't forget Kosovo, Dissman. We're very much still there, last I checked. And Bush Sr didn't exactly attack Iraq with the support he promised the people if they would rise up against Saddam either.

Anyways. Enough about Clinton:

Here's the fact. This is eye for an eye. This didn't begin until the photos of OUR troops humiliating and torturing prisoners that we had captured surfaced. I don't care about your excuses, "This is inhumane they must be stopped!" WE must be stopped as well.

I don't care what we're fighting for. We're doing the same shit, we just ignore it because we think we have a better cause, we're spreading our ideals and culture (Crusades anyone?), so we are right and they are wrong. When they see what we do, and attempt the same against us, they are demons and monsters.

This is a goddamn war. I'm sorry for the guy, but if you're in an area known to be high risk, you've accepted that risk upon yourself. This is war. People die, both as a direct result of combat and situations like this. We're no more innocent. Someone's going to blast me for this post but its the goddamn truth, and why most of the world has a poor opinion of the US: Because we're goddamn hypocrites that can't own up to our own mistakes.

Now. To clearify: Yes, Saddam was an asshole and needed to be removed. Yes, democracy is great. Yes, it would be wonderful for the Middle East to convert to democracies.

But will they? I don't think Iraq will. Enforced democracy isn't democracy. East Germany called itself to Democratic Republic of Germany or some such. It wasn't. Hell, the US isn't even a democracy, we're a republic, there's a very big difference.

We're so busy telling people "how it should be done" that we aren't noticing that we aren't doing it ourselves.

[ferret]

Falcon posted these in the joke thread, but I wanted to make some points using some of them:

2. The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our
highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.

12. Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound US policy.
Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.

20. Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but
trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international
harmony.

That says everything about us just about. Ideas that are central to "democracy" (Which is a very left ideal, btw), are NOT practiced in the US. We preach but we do not follow.

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

Very valid points all, ferret. But I still don't buy the whole "they did it cause of what we did" rhetoric. What happened to those prisoners - or detainees, or whatever - is atrocious, but it doesn't hold a candle to cutting someone's head off with carving knife - while ALIVE - from the side so that they don't die quickly and painlessly - on FREAKING VIDEO TAPE TO BE PASSED AROUND ON THE GOD DAMNED INTERNET!!!!! I'm sorry, but the two don't equate. Please don't tell me that you are one of those that blames us, our 'foreign policy' and all that crap for the attacks on 9/11.

Personnally, I don't think the two have anything in common. Yes, we infuriated them with those actions to the detainees, but I honestly think that they would have stepped it up to the next (current) level anyway. They weren'tt getting anough press, and moreover, WE weren't in enough fear.

Shhh! Don't repeat this, but I really think that the terrorists over there are shooting themselves in the foot by killing non-Americans. Up until now, the world community could turn somewhat of a blind eye, shrugging it off to, "Hey, the US brought it upon themselves." But now they are putting other nations into the mix. Even if it is under the veil of 'They support the US', it's still going to make them more staunch enemies.

[ferret]

Young DVP]Please don't tell me that you are one of those that blames us, our 'foreign policy' and all that crap for the attacks on 9/11.

Yes and no. Its foolish to think that our actions in the world aren't to be blaimed in some way shape or form. These are men that, in general for religious reasons, our bent on the destruction of our culture. But would they be so bent on it if we had a better track record in dealing with the nations of the Middle East? You can hate someone and still tolerate them. We may have not set the stage, but we definately were involved in the play, if you will.

Young DVP]Yes, we infuriated them with those actions to the detainees, but I honestly think that they would have stepped it up to the next (current) level anyway. They weren'tt getting anough press, and moreover, WE weren't in enough fear.

I don't think its about press in the way some might think. This isn't some attention starved kid. They don't CARE about being in the news, its merely a tool, a weapon, in this war. I will agree, this probably would have happened anyways. But consider this: Before the prisoner photos, would the normal Middle Eastern citizen have considered it justified? We showed we had no respect for them. The average Iraqi might not like the beheadings, may not agree with them, but now he's thinking "well.. they got what was coming to them."

Young DVP]Shhh! Don't repeat this, but I really think that the terrorists over there are shooting themselves in the foot by killing non-Americans. Up until now, the world community could turn somewhat of a blind eye, shrugging it off to, "Hey, the US brought it upon themselves." But now they are putting other nations into the mix. Even if it is under the veil of 'They support the US', it's still going to make them more staunch enemies.

Not entirely in complete agreement on this. The rest of the world tends to have a "live and let live" stance in my opinion. I vote 50/50 chance they pull out completely or give more support.

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

Ragarding ferret point #1: I am a believer in diplomacy. And I further believe that people have a moral obligation to do the same. However, our adversaries in this fight have not attempted to follow this path. Their solution is to make their point by blowing up busses with civilians, or strap a bomb to a child or young woman (willing or no) and sacrifice in the name of Allah. Yes we will and do bring the fight to them, but only after all other avenues have been exhausted - and NOTE, we only target military/terrorist locations. Not civilians directly, although some do unfortunately get caught in the crossfire that is not the intent. You can say that they just think differently than we and that this is the only way they know how to wage war. If that is the case, if these people are that brainwashed, then I'm sorry but eradication and extinction is in order. the world will be a better place without them all-together.

Regardin ferret point #2: We are in agreement on the press=weapon point. I don't think they want attention for its own sake. They were looking for a bigger gun and our liberal media is gladly providing it for them. as for the average Iraqi being outraged, the point is moot. They still need us or at least someone there while the pot is boiling or they are toast.

Regarding ferret point #3: "live and let live" will not stand up to public opinion in ours or any other nation if these killing continue. Yes these fools should not be over there in the first place. Hell, you couldn't pay me ENOUGH to go there right now - or in the forseeable future. But the world community will eventually say "kill or be killed".

[ferret]

DVP Point #1: Mostly agreed. But you have to realize that a lot of this isn't our actions per say, but the actions of Israel which by proxy are considered our actiosn due to our support. They consider themselves to be doing no worse than when Israel launches 8 missiles from an Apache into a crowded market place to kill one person, and kill 80 civilians at a time. The US claims that's justified. If the Palestinians detonate a bus outside a government building to kill some government official, and kill 15 civilians, its terrorism. Maybe so, but what Israel does is no less "terrorism" in my mind, and in their minds our support of Israel justifies such action. As I said, eye for an eye. We aren't really throwing the punches, but are continued inaction on the issues in Israel leaves us to be blaimed for what Israel does to the Palestines (Whom btw are basicly second rate citizens. Maybe we should liberate them from the Israels, just as we've liberates Iraqis from Saddam? If the Iraqis had begun using "terrorist" attacks such as buses against Saddam's government buildings, would we have decried it?)

DVP Point #2: Agreed. We are providing this weapon, but I don't think "liberal" media can be blaimed. Media period, left or right, has a field day over this stuff. American culture defeats American morale?

DVP Point #3: Live and let live has stood up to public opinion over and over and over. Spain pulled out, due to public opinion. Japan's public didn't say "You kidnapped our people, we will send MORE troops now..." They demanded the PM withdraw all troops and support. I currently see it more likely that people will "give up and go home" than they will send more support. Not the US, but the international community. The US I'm not sure about. Polls seem to be split about 50/50 on Bush (Gasp, just like in 2000), the war, and just about everything else.

[Dissman]

Ferret Point #1: Somewhat agreed, although, you have a chicken and the egg issue... Isreal is responding to terror attacks... which are attacks targeted against the civilian populace... they arent blowing up bombs outside of a government buildings to target government officials, they are blowing up shopping malls and buses full of just normal everyday folks.

Isreal is responding by assisinating their leaders... isreal isnt going into the palestinian communities and mowing down civilians with a chaingun... collateral damage is an unfortunate part of warfare and should be avoided... Isreal is targeting leaders, while the militants are targeting civilians.

Also, the palestinians had the chance to get EVERYTHING they wanted when the US Roadmap to peace was presented, they would have gotten their state, with the 1967 borders that they wanted, the settlements would go away, all they had to do was CONTROL AND DISARM THE MILITANTS AND STOP THE TERROR... they DID NOT. The militants thought they could get MORE through the gun and the bomb, but they were WRONG, Isreal is not willing to negotiate under duress of terror attacks... and who can blame them?

Ferret Point #3: People mistakenly see that "giving up and going home" is the solution to the problem, if we just go home, the problem will go away... that is incorrect... Iraq was a state that supported terrorist groups , and who was planning to launch terror attacks on the US itself. (There are plenty of intel documents that speak to both of these.) Staying and fighting is really our only option, basically staying until the new government is up and running, and we will slowly remove our troops, leaving the new government in control... that's the plan, and so far, the plan is working... a insurgancy led by mainly foreign fighters.

If we pull out, we will again look to the arab world as having no staying power and will pull out at the first sign of danger...

Ferret Previous Point on "Kosovo": We are still in Kosovo, although, in Kosovo, we faced nearly no resistance, we didnt have a trickle of american lives being lost each day, if we did, clinton probably WOULD have withdrawn the troops rather than take the PR hit.

Dissman's blanket statement on the UN: The United Nations is a CORRUPT organization... the Oil-for-Food investigation will show this very clearly, how governments were taking kickbacks and paying bribes to Saddam to get cheaper oil in DIRECT violation of the sanctions.

Dissman's blanket statement on Vietnam and Cuba has not been posted because i've digressed too much already.

[ferret]

On my Point #3: Clearification: I do not support "giving up and going home", I merely believe this is the mostly likely course of action that the international/foreign nations will end up taking.

[acme420]

bush wears his religion on his sleeve thats no secret. Maybe the muslims are pissed off that this blue eyed white devil christian is coming over to iraq and bombing the shit out of their country for their oil and feel they have to retaliate?