The End of the World

[[SEOD]--|SoulReaper|]

For those who do believe in the Apocolypse I was wondering if anyone else agrees that we are at the beggining of it.....I think that the pope might be the anti-christ.....maybe not, Id give us 5 - 20 years before everyone dies.

Iam being serious on this

[PeregrineFalcon]

Either way it doesnt matter to me, i just try and get through each day. If it comes im not worried, if it doesnt then whatever. Since I have no proof of a gawd and am not religious then I guess i dont believe in it, but hey whatever.

[ferret]

Er. Religion really doesn't matter to me until someone tries to shove it down my throat, but I don't think our good friend the pope is the antichrist. He's a bit too old for the role if you ask me. Now, maybe the next pope (Due very soon, I'd suspect, due to the above mentioned age problem), I could maybe see that. And of course, this demands the typical "omg bill gates has satan's address" type outcry, Windows is the mark of the beast, and such.

Really. I don't think there's any religious apocolypse. What I do see is the typical human stupidity and obsession with war that has destroyed SO many cultures before ours. We have the power these days to wipe the entire planet clean in less than an hour. How long till someone ****s up the balance that so far has kept us for the past 60 years from doing this?

[[SEOD]--|SoulReaper|]

Um... Bush already ****ed it up...hehe, but so far from what i have learned is that once the US goes at it and everyone is fighting everyone, i would think that we are at the end, think about it, we are going to run out of oil soon, then what? we are gonna need it from other countries, they wont give it to us, so WE will take it from them....all i know is that if God wont end the world WE will sooner or later.

[ferret]

You know, this post is topic #666. What a great coincidence :)

http://gamehavoc.com/viewtopic.php?t=666

[kael]

i went to the science museum in NYC one of the best I would say in the country, and my professor that took me there his brother was the director one of the smartest guys you could ever meet. And he ssaid that the human race will end as history has shown some event will occur that will end us all. Whether that be an asteroid hitting the planet(really could happen) or some global warming. It is bound to happen in the next 20,000 years. Now I didnt say it was close but it will occur. Who knows, look at all the other planets and see how they have craters and markings of getting hit. Its inevitable.

Yeah everyone that heard him talk just sat there and were stunned like well we have something to look forward too lol. But I had a blast at the museum. The Rose museum was incredible and the planetarium was awesome. I recommend it to anyone.

[blue]

You know, this post is topic #666. What a great coincidence :)

http://gamehavoc.com/viewtopic.php?t=666

LMFAO!

that really is too funny...

[steaLer]

i wouldn't say we are heading towards doom, not anytime soon.
i'd say mayybe in next 25-30 years when all the forests are gone, ocean water levels climb another feet, CO2 levels doubled and no fossil fuels left, and monster-ants take over the world.

but then, we'll just move to mars. i really do believe that i'll see that before i die.

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

We're gonna slowly kill ourselves over the next 20-80 years. It's already begun.

The Oil Age Is Over (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/)

I have this book on pdf and could host it if anyone wants it. Pretty interesting...and scary stuff.

[Uthor]

i wouldn't say we are heading towards doom, not anytime soon.
i'd say mayybe in next 25-30 years when all the forests are gone, ocean water levels climb another feet, CO2 levels doubled and no fossil fuels left, and monster-ants take over the world.

but then, we'll just move to mars. i really do believe that i'll see that before i die.

I heard somewhere that there are now more trees than like 50 years ago, mostly thanks to the large demand of paper cause many people to plant trees for harvesting.

[[gh]Spurty]

yupe, there is no shortage of trees in the World .. Oil either .. no shortages (i.e. we have not dried up our resources, we will do one day, but not for a loooonger time than the so called experts say).

This scare-mongering is a fad of the 60s. Its 2004 and people are STILL saying the same old. Yawn.

Now, how do you push the price of things up ? You say "Last few, buy now or you'll be sorry" Consumer deman raises, people make profits .. consumers are dumb and forgot the scam.

I think we are all going to die before any of us make it to 150 years old. <-- I bet thats something that comes true, even if we have medical brake throughs.

As for religion, come off it. They are here to do the following 'scare people into living the life they say you should live and to give cause for unjust wars'

They don't actually appear to be good for anything else. One good book doesn't sell me on a concept, but an idea will (i.e. I don't need religion to know that I need a partner for company).

heh loved the fact that this thread started as post 666 though. Good catch

[Princess]

As much as I'd love to get into a huge discussion about the opinion I'm about to express, I know that I will not devote the time/energy to explaining myself on a message board. However, for the record, I'd still like to say where I stand because I know that (probably/very likely) no one else on the boards will have the same view.

You see...between 1843-1845, Christians had calculated that the end of the world would occur between those two dates after thoroughly "calculating" the Bible. And when the stars and moons did not fall and the physical embodiment of Jesus did not appear for every eye to see, the idea was dismissed. In Shia Islam, there were prophecies that Jesus would return when the Qa'im returned 1000 years after the last "successor," so to speak. The last one turned up missing in 260 lunar years. 1000 years later would be 1260 in lunar years which = 1844 AD. An interesting comparison no doubt, but no simple math would convince the world...afterall, the world was still there.

Without going into much detail, I'll just say that I believe it already happened. I'm sure after many of the topics on these boards and on the FCS boards it is obvious that I accept the Bible and Qur'an as true, it's just a different perspective like so many of the perspectives out there.

As for what's happening in the world right now...we may very well blow ourselves up, but I doubt every eye will see Jesus there.

[Canon]

And you don't think anyone shares your view, princess?

rofl

[PeregrineFalcon]

As much as I'd love to get into a huge discussion about the opinion I'm about to express, I know that I will not devote the time/energy to explaining myself on a message board. However, for the record, I'd still like to say where I stand because I know that (probably/very likely) no one else on the boards will have the same view.

You see...between 1843-1845, Christians had calculated that the end of the world would occur between those two dates after thoroughly "calculating" the Bible. And when the stars and moons did not fall and the physical embodiment of Jesus did not appear for every eye to see, the idea was dismissed. In Shia Islam, there were prophecies that Jesus would return when the Qa'im returned 1000 years after the last "successor," so to speak. The last one turned up missing in 260 lunar years. 1000 years later would be 1260 in lunar years which = 1844 AD. An interesting comparison no doubt, but no simple math would convince the world...afterall, the world was still there.

Without going into much detail, I'll just say that I believe it already happened. I'm sure after many of the topics on these boards and on the FCS boards it is obvious that I accept the Bible and Qur'an as true, it's just a different perspective like so many of the perspectives out there.

As for what's happening in the world right now...we may very well blow ourselves up, but I doubt every eye will see Jesus there.

The problem with these suspected Apocalypse dates is that they are based on time and dates given and written in the bible or other religious texts. Time is a relative thing; relative to the person describing it. I do not believe that there is any way for a religious text to predict when this will happen.

Princess, I would like to say I agree with you when you say it is obvious that I accept the Bible and Qur'an as true, it's just a different perspective like so many of the perspectives out there., however I'm curious as to your perspective. I have been here since the gh forums opened, but dont read the FCS boards (as I came from the spurtyspub crew). If you want, please elaborate and react to my next bit of statments in whether you share the same views.

The way I look at religion and moreover religious text is that they can teach us good morals. I do not necessarily believe that they contain 100% facts (I would think others agree with me on this), but that they can teach us to love thy neighbor and thou shall not commit adultry, etc. etc. (just naming some of the commandments for examples sake). I am Jewish and have been brought up to believe in g-d, have had a Bar Mitzvah, lived in Israel for a month, and taught at a Sunday school. STILL I do not have any reall proof of a g-d; I do not believe in g-d. You are probably asking why does he write g-d differently then. The reason is because that is how I was tought; its a Jewish rule ive always followed. For me it has to do more with cultural tradition then religion.

As a human being I find it necessary to believe that everyone should be a good person or as good of a person as they can. Religious text is a good starting place for this line of thought. It CAN teach us about good human nature, but I will never live my life by it because I fear I will have become another fool worshipping something that I have no proof of. If someday I have proof of g-d then maybe my views will change. I made my choices and have read and studied both science and religion and I believe science to be the truth over many religion based 'facts'. Yes the world will end, but how it will happen is completely unknown. If it is because of one person or because of a meteor it will be something no one can control.

(i.e. I don't need religion to know that I need a partner for company).

I agree with this statment made by spurty. One thing I can, and will always believe in is LOVE. I think it is one, if not the most, powerful thing this world has to offer. To have somoene in your life who truly cares about you and you care about equally in return (whether it a wife, gf, family, and/or friends) is more important to me then searching and discovering if a g-d really exists.

I have been given the freedom of choice in this matter and one day when I have children I will teach them of my families heritage (Judaism) and their mother's (whatever it may be). Culture is important, and I try to seperate it from religion. I will allow them to make their own decisions but I feel it is my obligation to provide them with good examples of human nature (i.e the Old/New Testemant) and postive motivation to do what they feel is right in the world. I will always live by the moto, Knowledge is Power.

Hope this made some sense as I wrote it quickly while here at work. Im really quite curious as to how strongly you follow religious text Princess and what your perspective is on it. And please feel free to rebut and criticize my post :-).

[blue]

for the record, i am not religiuous and i really like to start fires. therefor, i'll light my match here.

I'll just say that I believe it already happened
the end of the world already happened? -- how am i here?

my biggest problem with the whole "god" thing is the dinasaurs and cavemen. i dont recall them in the bible at all. yet i have physical proof they existed. however, to be religious you have to have faith. belief in something that which you cannot see.

if the bible is right (yes i know your not supposed to read it word for word) they missed a few minor things in there. like you know that evolution thing.

if i were to sum it up, i would say that "god" is made up by people/community that is looking for a higher purpose in life. i mean, how many religions are there out there? if the catholics are right (do all the jews/buhdists/monks/jahovas/methodist/catholic preists/etc go to hell)?

what it comes down to is that 'if' there is a god, (note i dont think there is) 'if' there is a god, everyone has him confused. which religion is right?

certainly not mine. (for the record, if i am catagorized, i'll be a "stay home cafeteria protestan"). i take what i like and leave what i dont. i had sex before i was married. i swear. i use condoms. im vular and and ass hat alot just cause its fun at times. but im also an eagle scout and help out other people all the time. im always there for anyone that needs a hand. so am i going to hell since i sin?

anyway, this turned into a weird tangent i think and i have semi-lost my point. my point of course is that the end of the world wont happen according to a book that was written by someone XXX hundred years ago. mainly becuase that book is nothign more than a story book that has been changed over many years. i dont think the bible is even a history book. its more of a book of ethics.

there is an overall concept that i definaly agree with. just too many nit picky things that just dont make sense to me to follow. -- gay's for example. :/ im not gay, but im all for gay marriage. its 2004 and its discrimination to not let them get married (IMO). anway.

i still dont think the world is going to end anytime soon (unless we go piss off someone with alot of nukes)

[PeregrineFalcon]

for the record, i am not religiuous and i really like to start fires. therefor, i'll light my match here.

I'll just say that I believe it already happened
the end of the world already happened? -- how am i here?

my biggest problem with the whole "god" thing is the dinasaurs and cavemen. i dont recall them in the bible at all. yet i have physical proof they existed. however, to be religious you have to have faith. belief in something that which you cannot see.

if the bible is right (yes i know your not supposed to read it word for word) they missed a few minor things in there. like you know that evolution thing.

if i were to sum it up, i would say that "god" is made up by people/community that is looking for a higher purpose in life. i mean, how many religions are there out there? if the catholics are right (do all the jews/buhdists/monks/jahovas/methodist/catholic preists/etc go to hell)?

what it comes down to is that 'if' there is a god, (note i dont think there is) 'if' there is a god, everyone has him confused. which religion is right?

certainly not mine. (for the record, if i am catagorized, i'll be a "stay home cafeteria protestan"). i take what i like and leave what i dont. i had sex before i was married. i swear. i use condoms. im vular and and ass hat alot just cause its fun at times. but im also an eagle scout and help out other people all the time. im always there for anyone that needs a hand. so am i going to hell since i sin?

anyway, this turned into a weird tangent i think and i have semi-lost my point. my point of course is that the end of the world wont happen according to a book that was written by someone XXX hundred years ago. mainly becuase that book is nothign more than a story book that has been changed over many years. i dont think the bible is even a history book. its more of a book of ethics.

there is an overall concept that i definaly agree with. just too many nit picky things that just dont make sense to me to follow. -- gay's for example. :/ im not gay, but im all for gay marriage. its 2004 and its discrimination to not let them get married (IMO). anway.

i still dont think the world is going to end anytime soon (unless we go piss off someone with alot of nukes)

If I didnt make the same point that blue_sniper did just now in my post above then I would like to say that EVERY SINGLE word he said I 110% agree with, the whole time I read this I nodded my head in agreement. :-)

[blue]

<3 falcon. 2 peas in a pod :)

[cr0nick]

Joseph Campbell

[Monument]

You all have to realize that the end of the world might not have to be violent at all. If anyone really follows the biblical passages, you will know that "The end of this system of things" is proclaimed many times. That means the governments of "The Beast with 7 heads" or "Harlot"(the governments are the current systems of things). It could mean the governments of all 7 continents.

Sure the first ending was a flood, but throwing meteors at earth or nukes will render it uninhabitable, opposing the very purpose that God had intended, for humans to enjoy life and be fruitful under His rule.

It's very complex to decipher, but no one will ever know when the end comes. Not even Jesus himself knows. Read the last 3 chapters.


I also find myself pondering the passage about the indelible marks upon people's foreheads to signal the mark of the beast, and then realizing that people who observe Ash Wednesday(purportedly a pagan holiday/observation) have these marks on their foreheads too. Although the mark is not described, the coincidence seems either uncanny or imagined.


As for the purpose of life, it is to enjoy it. That was God's purpose for creating humanity. So why can't we enjoy it now? Because everyone has a CHOICE. Right now you can considering it the testing grounds on whether you will recieve the ability to enjoy life the way it was planned after the Apocalypse, or whether your soul should lie dormant forever. So why are we suffering because of our choices? It's like those sayings go - You don't know happiness without ever being sad, you don't know pleasure until you've received pain, you don't know about what life is until you have experienced death.

And hell - is not a burning fire. Reading the context of the Big Black Book denotes that hell was simply a place that was unliving. When Jonas was swallowed by a whale(not a shark), he asked to be delivered from hell. When people are put to rest in their graves they are in hell. And conversely, the exact criteria for people actually entering to heaven is unknown, but know that ONLY 144,000 will be entering the "Pearly Gates"; however, it's a little obvious that those who serve His will, probably already have season tickets.

[Monument]

Oh, some clarifications.

Why do we have CHOICE? Because when the first heavenly war erupted, it was due to Satan's jealousy and challenge over whether people would worship him as well, or better than, Jehova himself. So God let CHOICE be known to all mankind. Adam and Eve made choices, and stupid Satan-worshipping Goth kids make these choices as well, which do not seem that catastrophic until you get your just rewards.

As for those souls who will lie dormant forever, count Hitler in, Saddam, and countless others who have committed atrocities by taking the Lord's name in vain. Again, though, it is ultimately up to God himself who lives and who lies.

Hell as a theory of a never-ending burning cauldron of pain, was probably created to strike fear into man. Some roots I believe point to the never-ending fires of garbage outside the walls of Sodom and Gomorrah(sp?), fed by a sulfurous environment. Mind you, Sodom and Gomorrah were the prime points of decadence and sin in those days. Thus the connection. This fear was probably used in conjunction with the teachings, where people knew committing these sins would ultimately lead to rejection from the afterlife, the new earth. These followers knew that Sodom and Gomorrah were the targets of God's wrath, and probably put 2+2 together and henceforth the link was made.

Complex indeed. But do not take the Bible to an extreme literal sense. God works in mysterious ways, doesn't he?

[ferret]

Ahh. A post I can respond too. I hope I don't offend: I'm not Christian. But I've made quite a bit of study on multiple religions.. Let me point out a few things..

#1) Let's just get this out of the way first. Absolutely no offense intended, but your entire post is based on your beliefs as a Christian. Those of us who follow other paths (Or perhaps no path at all) do not necessarily think an "End of the World" is coming. Personally, I do. But it has nothing to do with religion and more to do with history: Humanity destroys itself, over and over this has happened, and with nuclear weapons and such in the world now, it would seem only a matter of time before everything is wiped clean.

#2) "Not even Jesus himself knows. Read the last 3 chapters. " This is a contradiction, as Jesus is part of the Trinity, which make up "God" and God is almighty, all powerful, all seeing, etc. It wouldn't make sense for Jesus to not know what would happen unless he is less than God, which again contradiction general Christian mythos.

#3) "Because everyone has a CHOICE." .. This is why I find the rest of your statement not something to hope for. It essentially states that we have freedom of will right now, so that God can choose who to include in his special place where freedom of will does not exist. I choose to believe I control my own fate, through the actions I choose, good or bad. If there is a God, I would consider him petty if he did NOT provide free will.. What is worship if there is no choice? Worship and faith become hollow if they are NOT freely chosen. If you were created and designed only to worship God, that worship is meaningless and rings false.

#4) Ash marks: Very correct. This is one of MANY pagan rituals absorbed into Christianity, including Christmas and Easter. This was done both purposely and accidently: Purposefully to help convert the european pagans to Christianity, and accidently simply because of how cultures often merge. Ie, just because you convert all the Germans to Christianity, they have practices a holiday at the winter solace for hundreds of years: Hence Christmas becomes an official observation of christianity. From a Christian stand point, it could be argued that those who practice these "absorbed" rituals are marked and not "true" .. There are several sects of Christianity that in fact do not practices these holidays (Or even birthdays).

#5) Quite right in my opinion, hell is not fire. That's just a human twist on it. Hell is not being, not living, something apart from the world and seperate from life. This isn't Christianity per say but my own personal definition. Hell is the opposite of what living is, the other side. From a spiritual/Christian point of view it is "seperation from the grace of God".. Which by their mythos is the most horrible thing possible.

#6) The book of Revelations was written during the time of the Roman Empire. This is just a statement of something I've heard, not fact and not even necessarily my opinion, but it has been speculated that it was really meant to sow discontent and predicted the fall of the Roman Empire. If true, then it has already occured. I can't remember which specificly, but an ancient form of Hebrew/Israeli encryption that involves numbers actually causes the number 666 to mean the name of one of the Caesers.. Whom died in a great civil war.

[ferret]

One last thing about Revelations: I consider its existance, if the above is not true, to be there as a "warning" to help keep people focused/vigilant. I don't think it'll happen. Ever, not as the Revelations states.'

By Christianity, being "saved" and following Jesus and leading a good life, and all those things, let you go to Heaven when you die, instead of to the burning lake. Why would God destroy the earth to remake it as "Heaven on Earth" and why does it have a human timeframe attached? He has creates the Heavens and the Earth and all those things between, etc, etc. I don't believe he'd destroy "Creation" .. it nullifies so much that has already been done (Creation in the first place, Jesus dying for sins, etc).

I understand that the possible "end all" argument is that I am looking at this all in human terms, and humans cannot possibly understand God, etc., and trying to apply "human" logic, etc, is futile. To that I say: Did he not create us in his own image?

[Monument]

Well put. And my beliefs do not derive from Christianity as I am not one.

However, the "Trinity" is not unlike the definition of what it is today: 3 parts that make a whole.
God, his son Jesus and the Spirit(or Holy Ghost) are three different entities. Since we all know Jesus is God's son and therefore lesser of the two, it is VERY plausible that he not know even what his Father is thinking.
For a small consideration, when Jesus was baptized, he did not hear himself speak over the clouds to.. himself. He did not look up at the opening skies and look towards.. himself, if he were on earth already. If we were made with the image of God, then why cannot we split into two different entities and be at two places at once? Because God and Jesus are separate entities.

I agree with point 2 that some worship is meaningless. But look at the different factions of religions and the way some non-natives CHOOSE to convert. There is meaning in that. But the prime function of religious choice is not WHO or HOW but rather whether you choose to praise and worship God(meaning, love, wisdom, justice), or whether you choose to praise and worship Satan(stupid Goth kids). We all know in almost all races and religions there is a Good and an Evil. Using God and Satan is just for this particular conversation's purposes; you might praise a different god or satan.
It is your choice to follow whatever path you choose, God-fearing or not, God-acknowledging or not. That is the beauty of choice that was given us. Freedom of will always exists, but would you want that freedom to extend to say, Hitler, Saddam, Osama, etc. There has to be certain limits of freedom much like we live today, much like how we use language as well. You are free to do and say as you like, but within a certain set of rules posed by law enforcement and governments.

Concerning your 6th point, I would -love- to know who the number 666 actually stood for. The mark of the Devil, and if I'm any good at math(2+2), designating this number with one of your Caesars could define the Emperor in place at the time of Jesus' crucifixion.. interesting! This doesn't mean this particular Caesar was good or bad until we find some historical data on him.

[Monument]

I agree, I don't think God would destroy the earth. That would be a complete waste of his time and energy, and would nullify the notion of a Paradise on Earth. Even when the great deluge came, it did not destroy earth, and He made provisions to save the entire species of animals and bugs. Instead, it was a giant wash to rid the earth of the populace that ignored his warnings.

The power of God is incredible, I don't think he would need to destroy something to re-create or to fix it. If he did destroy all of earth, Satan would win. And only the angels could witness that victory. Then we would be nothing but pawns in the Celestial Chessgame. But that's not the point, so I'm confident he won't make the earth into another sun. If anything He'll just make plants grow in the Sahara and make a lake appear in the middle of Death Valley.

[ferret]

You saved yourself from a scathing remark by mentioning God/Satan as merely frames of reference ;) Hehe.

Here's one issue I have with Christianity, which you may or may not sure: By definition, "Satan" (Again, frame of reference) is as powerful as "God" .. This is yin and yang. If you're familiar with eastern religions it'll make a lot of sense. As you already stated: You cannot understand joy without understanding sadness as well. Joy is meaningless if you cannot compare it to sadness - You might be joyful, but you wouldn't even know it, it would just be "normal".. You have to have sadness for the frame of reference. Evil is as strong as Good. The two offset each other, balance has to exist. Good cannot be greater than Evil because by definition, Good would overwhelm the evil.

Freedom of will requires this balance. That freedom DOES fully extend to Hitler, Saddam, Osama. Except for Osama, these were men IN POWER, making the laws, the rules. They were bad bad people, Evil even. The freedom always exists, even if we as humans attempt to restrict it. Power is the one thing "both" sides, good and evil, strive for in the end.. Power over the other side. Yin and Yang, both working together and against to provide balance.

Imagine a world without any evil. Nothing but good. I can't imagine it. It would be a place where everyone is identical, no one has an opinion, everyone goes about mindless doing what their "position" is in life. This is my own view of it, you may disagree. One reason I dislike the afterlife envisioned by Christians is because I find it BORING. My favorite things in life involve playing videos games, usually violents one. (Petty example, I know, bear with me :P). Life is only good because of the million of shades of grey between black (evil) and white (good).

Anyways. Not all the goth kids are satan worshippers, most actually just wear black clothes to piss their parents off and are nothing of the sort :p Posers ;P The true Church of Satan (Yes, it really exist) does not "worship" Satan as a source of evil, sacrifice babies, or anything. Satan is worshipped as a source of free will, of breaking away from conformity and being a slave to the will of society, etc. Not my cup of tea and I'm sure its not yours either, but its not what most Christians would make it out to be. Its about doing what YOU want to do, not what everyone else says you should.

As for Caeser. For some reason I want to say its Nero. This is just a tidbit I remember from some documentary from years ago, I'll see if I can't dig up some research on it.

[squeak]

I want to be a pagan. Keep christmas and easter holidays... and my birthday, and go to valhallha when I die. Sounds good to me.

-on a serious note-

Perhaps the "end of the world" isnt something tangable. IE, it refers to the end of either spirituality/religion/churches... etc. What if it simply predicts the end of believing in, say "GOD" in the form of all mighty, all powerful, man with big beard pointing and creating. I mean, I know I dont view "God" as that, and I think that general view of him has changed since the apocolypse was written. OR, something else, just not in the physical sense. The earth wont get hit by a meteor, or a large flood, or disease, or death of people, but the death of religion? I mean, without a religion, wouldnt some people be lost? The ones with true faith on the otherhand, would be stronger and carry on?

dunno, just speculation.

[Monument]

Fortunately, Good IS greater than Evil. Satan is not as powerful as God, not even a fraction thereof. Were that the case, the Earth would constantly be subject to fallen angels(both good and bad, demons originated from turned angels) and one amazing fireworks display on a minute by minute basis.

However, humanity itself is proof that Good is greater than Evil. Good samaritans, empathy, 9/11, the WILL to do what's good for yourself and others without thought is proof that Evil doesn't have a 50/50 grasp from Good. How this is balanced is a mystery to me. Perhaps complacency and patience from God himself is allowing the balance to SEEM yin and yang.

And I agree, a perfect afterlife may be boring. No neat cars, no music to pump, no porn, no NS to play!! But I prefer a boring afterlife if that means I can stop suffering, stop getting sick, stop getting old.. But the definition of evil may change as the time demands it. Putting gum on a seat in the afterlife may be evil. Maybe even putting hotsauce on someone's toothbrush may be evil too.

I like my violent games too. It does not make me violent. Stupid people make me violent. As for porn, it's supposed to be forbidden, but I'm human, and at least I'm not commiting genocide or killing some poor kids or robbing some old lady.

And I pick on Goth kids because their choices are very poor as a vehicle for getting their points across, and they look like clowns anyway. As for the Church of Satan, possible admirable *cause* but VERY poor association.

In that context, yes, Satan does constantly look for followers, and it's a sure bet he's got a foot in that Church's door..

[Monument]

Marsh, good points you bring up. Doing a little reverse-engineering, we might be able to speculate backwards to find a solution of whether there will be the end of religions.

My reverse is such: Originally there was one language on this peaceful earth. I forget the reason why, but there was a point in time where that language was divided and many new languages were miraculously beginning to be spoken. No one could speak to each other, so everyone went their separate ways.

What if we could apply the same principle to religion? There probably was one religion that existed, and due to human nature of differences, many sects were created and people went with that they felt was more or less correct to their way of life.

If there is an end to language and religion, would not we come full circle? Granted the division of languages would suck to lose, but if everyone were on the same page, confusion would be no more. Much like religion. Who would be lost if we all practiced one religion? And who would be confused if we all understood our tongue?

Our nature to help others without thought supports that there would be no "lost" people, as we would want to help them. Those with stronger faith would probably do the leading, as in Moses and Noah. I think people choose to be lost.

As for death and diseases, unfortunately it is occuring already. Pestilences is written to plague us soon. But I think this ties in with the whole "What is Paradise if I have not witnessed its opposite" thing.

[ferret]

First site:

http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/666a.html

Its on Geocities but the info should be good. First quote:

The first major persecutor of Christians is often considered to be Caesar Nero and the Christians used the underground code 666 to refer to him. This makes sense, because when "Caesar Nero" is translated into hebrew and is "coded" -- using the traditional Hebrew numerical values assigned to the letters of the alphabet -- the numbers sum to 666. This would have been rather obvious to Christians living at the time, but concealed enough so as to avoid being thrown to the lions. As can be seen, some meaning would be lost in the translation from latin to hebrew, which perhaps accounts for the "mystery" that seem to gather around "666". A Christian at the time would probably consider the matter subtle, but probably not mysterious.

In this interpretation the Bible is shown not to be a prophecy of things to come but rather a social or political commentary. Revelations thus refer to the fall of Rome and Nero.

Google Answers on the subject:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=343719

I didn't read much of it but Nero is again mentioned.

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/n/nu/number_of_the_beast__numerology_.html

You may also note the number 616 in several places, which is another possible number for Nero depending on the spelling/language... Some early copies of Revelation (As mentioned in the above link) actually had 616 instead of 666, so that's interesting to note.

Also of note from the above link:
In Roman numerals 666 represents all the numbers from 1 to 500 in descending order, namely D (500) + C (100) + L (50) + X (10) + V (5) + I (1), or DCLXVI. Robert Graves suggests in his study of pagan symbolism The White Goddess that this is an acronym for the Latin sentence Domitianus Caesar Legatos Xti Violenter Interfecit, or "The Emperor Domitian violently killed the envoys of Christ".
In an alternate style of greek notation for numerals, 6 + 60 + 600 can be expressed as digamma koppa kappa which when superposed into a monogram, form the graffito form of the labrys very common on roman walls of the time, which is interesting considering what some characterise as misogynist tendencies in Revelations.

[ferret]

Fortunately, Good IS greater than Evil. Satan is not as powerful as God, not even a fraction thereof. Were that the case, the Earth would constantly be subject to fallen angels(both good and bad, demons originated from turned angels) and one amazing fireworks display on a minute by minute basis.

No offense, but this is based on your personal beliefs of spirituality. If you discount angels and demons as non-existant and consider good and evil more as forces of nature (Eastern religions once again), purely spiritual, the outlook is completely different.

However, humanity itself is proof that Good is greater than Evil. Good samaritans, empathy, 9/11, the WILL to do what's good for yourself and others without thought is proof that Evil doesn't have a 50/50 grasp from Good. How this is balanced is a mystery to me. Perhaps complacency and patience from God himself is allowing the balance to SEEM yin and yang.

Completely disagreed. You live in the US? Or any more developed country. This isn't the case. Just because they're good people in the world DOESN'T prove that Evil isn't 50/50. Crime is rampant even in the US. Some of our most powerful leaders are corrupt and lead immoral lives. Evil doesn't necessarily mean stomping on kittens heads and stuff. Anything you consider sinful is a sign of evil. What is a "sin" is entirely a personal definition though. Shades of grey, remember that. Something doesn't have to obviously be pitch black evil for it to still be on that side of the spectrum. A dictatorship is considered "evil" by American culture, but what do we know? We don't live there. Maybe life is better than we believe. Evil is not something that can be defined per say, because so many consider "evil" to mean "Not what I represent"

But I prefer a boring afterlife if that means I can stop suffering, stop getting sick, stop getting old..

I don't. Suffering, sickness, etc.. These let me know that I LIVE. Balance once more. No joy without sadness. Paradise, utopia, cannot exist, opposites are necessary or there is nothing.

As for the Church of Satan, possible admirable *cause* but VERY poor association.

Only from the viewpoint of a Christian or one who believes in a similar mythos. They don't view Satan as evil, but actually, perhaps, that God is, by seeking to control everything and deny freedom of will.

In that context, yes, Satan does constantly look for followers, and it's a sure bet he's got a foot in that Church's door..

I would hope he has his foot in the door of the Church of Satan :P From either view point, this would have to be true.

I forget the reason why, but there was a point in time where that language was divided and many new languages were miraculously beginning to be spoken. No one could speak to each other, so everyone went their separate ways.

Tower of Babel (sp? Bable?). They attempts to build a tower to the heavens and god struck it down and scattered them, giving each a new language to speak. I do not consider this a true fact, but merely a quick "Bible" way of explaining the languages of the world. Languages evolve on their own and most can be traced back to this or that language. Latin evolved in to over 25 languages simply due to the fall of the Roman empire and the influx of other cultures (French is a mixture of Gaelic, German and Latin, for example)

Our nature to help others without thought supports that there would be no "lost" people, as we would want to help them

Wonderful sentiment, but it wouldn't work that way.. As you've already mentioned, our good Friend Hitler. The entire German nation was behind him.. He legally won the election. He didn't kill all the Jews solely by his own hand.. He ordered it, and others followed. Evil to balance Good.. Cruelty and hate are just as much a part of humans as kindness and love. While you and I may be good people who would go out of our way to help others, I don't think Columbian drug runners are gonna change because they no longer speak Spanish but the same language as others. They'd still be the same dangerous, greedy humans.

As for death and diseases, unfortunately it is occuring already. Pestilences is written to plague us soon.

There is no soon. Plagues and pestilences have always existed and will continue to exist. Like you said, simply a part of existance. You can not understand what it is to be "healthy" without there being a "sick". Dualities is what everything is about.

[Monument]

Yes, unfortunately. What would become of paradise when the balance no longer exists..

As for pestilences, they HAVE always existed, just not in the copious amounts that they're supposed to come in. But we HAVE already seen freakish amounts of bugs every here and there, now and then. Could be a predecessor.

As for the 50/50, we sure do have evil leaders and such. But if it were truly half and half, there would be one evil person for one good person. But I surely don't think that's the case.

And for your suffering, sickness, pain, letting you know that you LIVE, I prefer laughter, love, fun, and pleasurable company to let me know that I do.

[ferret]

And for your suffering, sickness, pain, letting you know that you LIVE, I prefer laughter, love, fun, and pleasurable company to let me know that I do.

Dualities once more. You can't know love, fun, and pleasure without the opposite to bring it into perspective. You can't appreciate it, because you don't know what the alternative is, what MAKES it good.

I think, therefore, I am. I feel pain, therefore, I live. Emotions aren't one sided. "Bittersweet" is perhaps one of the best words in the English language.

A weak example: Any time I get a headache, I stop and wonder why. Work stress? Probably. Why do I work? To make a living. Why do I care about that? To support my family, whom I love. The headache is caused by a negative factor that brings a positive factor into focus.

-/+ .. Everything has an opposite ;P Love/Hate, Happy/Sad, Healthy/Sick, Living/Death.

One is meaningless without the other.

Edit: A second example: Some rich people, specificly those born into it, honestly cannot fathom what it is like to be poor. They don't appreciate what they have, they think this is "good" but they have NO idea what it would be like to be poor. Someone who grew up on the street, worked their ass off, and became successful appreciates it far more, because they KNOW what the other end of the spectrum is.

[Princess]

And you don't think anyone shares your view, princess?

rofl

Why wouldn't I think that?

Back to the topic. Like I said before, unfortunately I don't really have as much time to give as well a thought out explanation as I'd like, but I'm willing to give it my best in the time I have available to me:

I have briefly touched on the significance of inward truths from outward meanings in a previous discussion here (http://www.gamehavoc.com/viewtopic.php?t=42), so I do not feel it necessary to go through it again, refer to it. But I do wish to add a bit more to why I would possibly believe that the Day of Judgment came and left as a “thief in the night.”

It has been written in the Holy Books that Christ will come again and his coming depends on the fulfillment of certain signs. For example, “The sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven…And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”(Matt 24:29-30) Something worth noting, at his first coming Christ also came from heaven. Christ himself says: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (John 3:13). It is clear to all that Christ came from heaven, although he apparently came from the womb of Mary. At the first coming he came from heaven (although in the womb), and so in like manner his second coming would have come from heaven (though apparently from the womb). The conditions that are indicated in the Gospel for the second coming of Christ are the same as those that were mentioned for the first coming.

The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under his shadow, that his kingdom will be established, that he will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, will all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ and considered him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the law, and sentenced him to death.

In like manner, the signs and conditions, which have been spoken of, all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally. Among other things, it is said that the stars will fall upon the earth. … Okay. The stars are endless and innumerable, and the modern mathematicians have established and proved scientifically that the globe of the sun is estimated to be about one million and a half times greater than the earth, and each of the fixed stars to be a thousand times greater than the earth, and each of the fixed stars to be a thousand times larger than the sun. If these stars were to fall upon the surface of the earth, how could they find place there? What is even stranger is that Christ said “Perhaps I shall come when you are yet asleep, for the coming of the Son of man is like the coming of a thief.” (Thess. 5:2, 2 Pet. 3:10). Perhaps the thief will be in the house, and the owner will not know it.

I would like very much to get into the nonexistence of evil (in a response towards Ferret) and I would also like to say exactly what I think my first Biblical quote is referring to, but I should probably get back to work. In response to Falcon, I am actually contrary to your said beliefs because I am incredibly religious. I strongly follow religious text, I strongly believe in God, that science and religion are harmonious, that each individual has the responsibility to find their own truth, and that religion should be unified.

[ferret]

I should note I don't believe in evil as a "demonic" force or anything of the sort. Evil is simply the negative side of the coin. Anger, hate, death, sickness, crime, greed, etc, opposed against the positive side, understanding, love, life, health, law abiding, generous, etc.

I do not believe in either a "good" or "evil" supreme deity of the sort most religions preach. To me, they are more a force of nature, something spiritual, communal, not any single entity.

Waiting for the continued discussion :) Get home from work, I want to hear the rest of what you got to say, as always well written and well thought.

[Monument]

Aye, ye shant take thee bible to literalness. Anyone who's been well-versed in the bible will note that it comprises a collection of moral stories. The are many many figurative references.

I was looking over some of Prin's post, and the wording of "the stars will fall upon the earth" can simply mean nighttime will come over the earth, supported by Jesus stating that "Perhaps I shall come when you are yet asleep", and ".. the coming of the Son of man is like the coming of a thief". Supposedly, nighttime.

And as with Ferret, I would like to hear your theory on the nonexistence of evil. Theory, in part because it goes against Ferret's theory of balance, and because it goes against my theory of knowing both sides of the coin concerning happiness and sadness[etc].

[Princess]

Hahaha, I haven't even begun the explanation of the nonexistence of evil and you already think it goes against both of your theories ;). Hehe, I hope I'll be able to write about it tonight (most likely I'll still be here at work), we'll have to see.

Waiting for the continued discussion Get home from work, I want to hear the rest of what you got to say, as always well written and well thought.

It helps when you work in a temple (http://www.illinoisbiz.biz/film/filmtrial/Images/museums/bahai_temple.gif) ;). Lots of time to think.

[Princess]

All right, I’ve finally got some time here at work to discuss what I believe about the nonexistence of evil. This subject matter is a bit difficult to explain, but bear with me. I believe human beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, material being those perceptible to the senses and that which is intellectual. Things that would be considered sensible are those that are perceived by the five senses, therefore things that the eyes can see are sensible. Intellectual things are those that have no outward existence, but are conceptions of the mind. All of man’s characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible. The intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All of these things have no real existence.

In the same way, sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence. So blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength. Of course, this will create doubt in our minds. For example, take a poisonous spider or bee. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, they are evil in relation to man, but in relation to themselves they are not evil because their poison is their weapon, or they defend themselves by their sting. But because their elements do not agree with our elements there is an antagonism. This antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards to themselves they are good.

It is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of it’s proper being it may not be evil. Then it would be proved that there is no evil in existence and that all God (or not God) created He created good. This evil is nothingness. So death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light; when there is no light there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexistent. Then it would be evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent. Deepen on this matter, I know my explanation is lengthy and confusing =/.

In response to what: “The sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven…And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”(Matt 24:29-30) may possibly mean in my own eyes:

By the terms “sun” and “moon,” mentioned in the writings of the Prophets of God, is not meant solely the sun and the moon of the visible universe. In every instance they have attached to them a particular significance. In this instance, I think it refers to the waywardness of the divines of the spoken age, the annulment of laws firmly established by divine revelation. It is unquestionable that in every succeeding revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the pre-dispensation, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence in the successor. So I guess you could imagine that it is meant of a new revelation coming that would have the “stars fall from the heavens (rulers, holy men of that particular age),” “sun will be darkened (that dispensation is ending),” “the moon will not give her light (the teachings will not be reflected by the same prophet),” and “then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (there will be great suffering when the next prophet appears for they shall see him, but may not recognize him).” Of course, it’s all speculation.

[ferret]

I don't have time to go into detail right now, maybe later, but your ideas of nonexistant work pretty well with how I see things. Perhaps "absense" might be more easily compended than saying "nonexistant" though. This fits fine with my dualities stuff, as "nonexistance" is the opposite of "existance" .. Greed is the absense of generousity, hate the absense of love, etc. I think its quite obvious that both of these traits are rather common in the world, so I see nothing in this that threatens my dualities/balance stuff ;)

As for the last paragraph, I'm not really qualified to respond. I've read quite a bit of various religion texts, but as they aren't really my beliefs per say and I haven't made a heavy study of it, I won't try to argue with your interpetation. I would tend to agree with it though.. Most of this stuff is metaphorical, and woe is he who takes it literally.

[Princess]

I don't have time to go into detail right now, maybe later, but your ideas of nonexistant work pretty well with how I see things. Perhaps "absense" might be more easily compended than saying "nonexistant" though. This fits fine with my dualities stuff, as "nonexistance" is the opposite of "existance" .. Greed is the absense of generousity, hate the absense of love, etc. I think its quite obvious that both of these traits are rather common in the world, so I see nothing in this that threatens my dualities/balance stuff ;)

Hehe, yeah, that's actually why I wanted to discuss it. When I read your ideas it reminded me of my own =D.

[Princess]

Btw, did anyone notice that this thread is: http://www.gamehavoc.com/viewtopic.php?t=666&start=30

*plays twilight theme*

[ferret]

Yep, mentioned it on the front page :)