Retribution? I think not.

[unrequited]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html

http://news.google.com/news?q=video+beheading+berg

**WARNING GRAPHIC**
http://www.christopherwu.net/files/iraq2vediom.wmv

All I can do is drop tears into a bucket. Abuse/torture of prisoners != execution of civilians. The last time I felt this disgusted/enraged/upset was with Daniel Pearl's execution (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22daniel+pearl%22). This makes me want to take up arms. I feel like we're being a parent trying to tell little kids how to behave, only they're screaming back at us not knowing what's "best for them". It's arrogant I know, but the only alternative which is quickly moving up in my books is telling the rest of the world to go eff off. Let them kill each other in the middle east, south east asia, north east africa, middle europe, and south america. You tell me what to think, and how we need to play worldcop or how we have a moral obligation to the world after you watch the last 30 seconds of that video.

[ferret]

Not entirely surprising that this has occured. The long standing tradition that "We don't negotiate with terrorists/hijackers/kidnappers." works on the principal that the person who did the deed is in a disparate situation, and that they'll end up coming out with their hands up to avoid death.

That doesn't work with these people. They don't play by Westerner rules. They make a statement, and they act on it, no empty words. This is what the Bush administration seems to be unable to understand. These people won't go away because you threaten them and bomb their houses and put them in prison. At some level, their demands will have to be met (Which generally involves the US leaving the Middle East alone, ie, stop supporting dictators and stop interfering with their politics) or there will be these kinds of incidents.

I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner, but I guess the prison abuse stuff pushed them a little further. Quite a few of these people believe the prison abuse is just the tip of the ice berg and similar things are being done to Iraqi's, etc.

[unrequited]

I just edited my first post in the time you wrote yours and we both came to the same conclusion. Get the hell out of there. If we're not being recognized for it, forget it. It's not worth it.

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

My stomach is turned.

[ferret]

Heh. I'm sure that's what they desired it to do. This is punishment. The US failed to act, so an action was taken, meant to stir the American people up in anger. Some, a good deal, of this anger will only be directed back to the Middle East, at the terrorists. But a lot of people pause, and say.. "Why are we there? Why did the Administration let this happen?"

Its all a power-game, in the end, played with people's lives.

[MoreYangThanYin]

Thats just pure out bullshit. I was sick to my stomach at the end of that movie and i watch loads of gore movies. I agree. Get the F**k out before we do something to wrong to take back. If we're not being recognized as helping then let them all fight there own war. Lets just go back to isolation for a little bit. We the U.S. pick up the tab and blame for al things. It's like playing with fireworks here. Sooner or later someones gonna lose an eye and then the explosives will start to fly.

[[NAKED] Mithis]

Thats just pure out ****. I was sick to my stomach at the end of that movie and i watch loads of gore movies. I agree. Get the F**k out before we do something to wrong to take back. If we're not being recognized as helping then let them all fight there own war. Lets just go back to isolation for a little bit. We the U.S. pick up the tab and blame for al things. It's like playing with fireworks here. Sooner or later someones gonna lose an eye and then the explosives will start to fly.



You wanna know what will really bug me. It is the fact that there was such an uproar about prisonors being stacked in a HP all around the world. I know we will hear about that for months. But where is the uproar from around the world for this poor soul. He wasn't in the military or a government worker. He just wanted to help the iraqi people. There will not be one.

[Spyder]

Its all a power-game, in the end, played with people's lives.

Exactally. Its a game we cant play due to politics (at least publicly), and a game they will play all they want because the world already hates them (and us, so they can get away with it). Those people dont play by the same rules that the rest of the world does. The only real way to combat them and win is to fight fire with fire, a la John Travolta in swordfish, but that will never happen.

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

I am not a religious man, but it's things like this that make me wonder how ANY God can let anything like this continue to happen.

I could not imagine worshipping a God who asks me to kill in His name.

This is not the way it was meant to be. This CANNOT be His plan. I believe in free will, but just like a parent to his child we are in obvious need of direction. This is my hope; that some Power greater than us will step in and say, "ENOUGH!!!"

Seeing this video makes me very sad for the world we live in. I am embarrassed by it. And most of all, it makes me fearful for myself and my family.

[ferret]

I guess it would be a bad idea to point out that this happens in the US fairly often. Husband gets angry, or wife gets angry, kills and decapitates spouse, etc.

I understand outrage that this occured, but I do not understand the surprise and shock, when it happens at home over things not even as important as "My nation has been invaded."

[[NAKED] Mithis]

I guess it would be a bad idea to point out that this happens in the US fairly often. Husband gets angry, or wife gets angry, kills and decapitates spouse, etc.

I understand outrage that this occured, but I do not understand the surprise and shock, when it happens at home over things not even as important as "My nation has been invaded."


When was the last time something like this happened here. I don't hear on the news often that some one took off thier spouses head. Yeah people get killed here and murdered but i don't see it happening like you say. If it did it would be all over the news. Once again because all the news shows is the negative aspects of life.

[ferret]

I guess it would be a bad idea to point out that this happens in the US fairly often. Husband gets angry, or wife gets angry, kills and decapitates spouse, etc.

I understand outrage that this occured, but I do not understand the surprise and shock, when it happens at home over things not even as important as "My nation has been invaded."


When was the last time something like this happened here. I don't hear on the news often that some one took off thier spouses head. Yeah people get killed here and murdered but i don't see it happening like you say. If it did it would be all over the news. Once again because all the news shows is the negative aspects of life.

It happens all the time. Check around on the more local news sources rather than the national ones. I used to read the "Local" sections of CNN. Quite a lot of scary stuff happens in the states, and head removal is one of them. I'm not saying its common but it occurs.

The media usually ignores it beyond a "behind the front page" short about it. If its not about someone rich, tied to politics, or important, they generally don't give it more than 3 paragraphs.

There was an article on CNN recently, you wouldn't have seen it on the TV or front page, it was hidden deep in the Law Section. Lady killed her abusive husband with a shotgun in their bedroom, opened the window, and closed/locked the door. That was like, 2 years ago and they found out a month ago. He was still in there, all decayed and stuff. She had moved into a spare bedroom and just told everyone he ran off.

Now, that's a slightly justified thing, he beat her all the time, but I'm just trying to illustrate that just because CNN didn't put it on the ticker doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

[Spyder]

i dont feel like rewriting everything i wrote in the tfc forums, so i'm gonna copy/paste it. If some of it seems out of place, go read the other thread ;) The general gist of what i'm saying in these posts is that these people are just simply ****ed up in general, and that beheading him wasnt caused from outrage about what happened in the prisons.

its more like those people are ****ed up, and dont play by our rules. Its similar to the tactics used in vietnam, but everyone blames us for the horribleness of the war, not because the vietnamese were so brutal and we couldnt counter it.

The only way to make them stop is to play the game by their rules (a la John Travolta in swordfish), but that will never happen because the american people wouldnt stand for it. (read: prison "abuse")



Nades...i dont think your fully understand the psyche over there (Hell, I dont, and neither does my dad even though he spent 20 years over there). He was american. Whether or not we did anything in the prisons, the fact he was american was justification enough to saw his head off in their minds. Like i said before, these people dont play by our rules. The american public doesnt seem to understand that, and they probably never will. To think that anything they do to us is actually instigated by something that we do, rather than something that we are, is just plain stupid.Nades...i dont think your fully understand the psyche over there (Hell, I dont, and neither does my dad even though he spent 20 years over there). He was american. Whether or not we did anything in the prisons, the fact he was american was justification enough to saw his head off in their minds. Like i said before, these people dont play by our rules. The american public doesnt seem to understand that, and they probably never will. To think that anything they do to us is actually instigated by something that we do, rather than something that we are, is just plain stupid.


heres a solution; for every american killed have Delta kill 20 of their radical amans(or whatever they call their priests) once they are all gone there will be no priest spreading the "Koran to destroy all Westerners". I give it 10 years before there is a revolt in Iran and when that happens there will be a democractic Muslim Bloc country that we didnt intervene in to finally kick the rest of those ass backwards nation into gear. Oh and kane i never EVER want to talk to you again thinking taht he deserved that for going over there of his own power helping rebuilding Iraq, getting captured because he was american and killed b/c what happened to some iraqi prisoners(which happens in our current jail system to american prisoners but no one complains about taht do they?).Flame if you will but it will not bother me for i am a republican and a hawk til the day i die which i hope will be in defense of this great country that i call home


exactally. Sometimes the easiest solution will never come to pass because the majority of the world doesnt like it. But one thing i see more and more after this execution that i dont like is that people seem to think that he was beheaded because of the prison abuse. He was beheaded because he was american. A few of our soldiers decide to play their game and screw around with the iraqi prisoners. The iraqi soldiers take the opportunity to kill another american, not because of the abuse, but because they just hate us.

Now, its not all iraqis, and certainly not all muslims. It's true that most of them dont like us, but thats like saying that just because most americans hate the french that most of us would kill them just because we hated them. Its just the radical few that think its their religious duty to kill us for some reason. The only way to stop them is to kill them before they kill us. They sawed off a guys head while he was still alive... you dont reason with people like that. The problem is that we dont know who they are until its too late.[/quote]

[steaLer]

we started this war by going in there for "whatever" reasons and did a horrible job at everything. i'm more so dissappointed in OUR military's behavior. they just killed one, we killed many more just by our trigger fingers and torture in prison.

so an year and half later: no WMD, no terrorist networks, no osama, and we torture people almost as worse as Saddam. ironic, eh?

[Spyder]

actually thats not exactally true. Al-quida hasn't been eliminated, but its been really hurt. While we havent found any WMD, it's painfully obvious that saddam either had weapons and hid them really well (ei, out of the country) or didnt have any but was on the way to obtaining them. Osama doesnt really matter any more... as long as we keep troops over there, he wouldnt be able to show his head long enough to do anything of importance. And no... we are not torturing people almost as worse as Saddam. Saddam tortured people in the same brutal way that Nick Berg was. There's a difference.

While I agree that we didnt do a very good job over there, and it definitely could have been done better (I dont know how, but it did have to be done), you can't overlook what we have accomplished.

[AirFoam]

we killed many more just by our trigger fingers and torture in prison
id like to know when we ever killed any of the people we had prisoner
and some people claim this is "an eye for an eye" when thats bullshit, being covered in a black shroud with wires tired to you is NOT getting your head cut off and being video taped, then posted on the internet as a trophy. just drop a nuke on the middle east, **** the environment, **** it all, mostly **** them

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

The alternative is to bring our troops home and close the ****ing borders. Everyone hates us, so let them sort it all out. we'll still be around with our minivans and SUV's to clean up the mess when the dust settles.

[Dissman]

I've got a lot to say... so bear with me.

"We don't negotiate with terrorists/hijackers/kidnappers." works on the principal that the person who did the deed is in a disparate situation, and that they'll end up coming out with their hands up to avoid death. That doesn't work with these people. They don't play by Westerner rules. They make a statement, and they act on it, no empty words. This is what the Bush administration seems to be unable to understand. These people won't go away because you threaten them and bomb their houses and put them in prison.

At some level, their demands will have to be met (Which generally involves the US leaving the Middle East alone, ie, stop supporting dictators and stop interfering with their politics) or there will be these kinds of incidents.

I disagree, Usama Bin Laden had long said that the United States was a "paper tiger" and that he believed that he could do basically anything, watch us bomb him a few times, and then ride it out... by negotiating under the muzzle of a gun, or the nose of an airplane, you show that it's a method to get anything out of you that they want.

Usama and company *badly* want us to leave Iraq... the reason is, they want the government in shambles, they want to install a totalitarian islamic regieme that is willing to replace the base of operations they lost in Afganistan.

We the United States, to be able to defeat this menace, must show that WE WILL NOT BE INTIMIDATED! That's all that will work, we must show, that when we are committed to a task, we will see it through, we will not run, back off, or hide when the going gets tough. If we are to do anything that they would want, we need to make it look like we are doing it because it's what WE want to do, and that we're not bowing down to them in fear.

And it's the governments of the region that are causing a lot of the problem, including the saudi's. Saudia Arabia rakes in billions of dollars in oil revenue per year, the average Saudi citizen lives in abject poverty, while the royal family is worth millions and billions of dollars. They are taught in schools (the medrases) that their suffering is because of the United States. By directing their anger outwards to us, the Saudi Royal family can continue to live large, and exploit their own citizens... the worse it gets "The worse that the United States is being to us"

Bringing our soldiers home when they are ramping up the stuff, will just reinforce that we are sissies who wont stay for the long haul, and all they have to do to get us to do what they want is some damn distasteful stuff.

we started this war by going in there for "whatever" reasons and did a horrible job at everything. i'm more so dissappointed in OUR military's behavior. they just killed one, we killed many more just by our trigger fingers and torture in prison.

Our military did a superb job, they accomplished the fastest land advance in military history, they avoided civilian casualties far better than any military in history. They liberated a people that have lived under a totalitarian regeme that had killed thousands, if not millions of innocent people.

Our military goes to such great lengths to avoid civilian casulties, that it almost makes it very difficult to fight a war, the militia's fight from churches and hospitals... while we attempt not to destroy those places.

Our soldiers did nothing even REMOTELY close to things that Saddam and his kids did on a routine basis... every time the soccer team lost a game on the world stage, Uday i believe would make them play barefoot with a lead ball. Graves with thousands of murdered individuals have been discovered. As far as i can tell, there have been few if any fatalities because of the abuses that our troops are responsible for (Also, our forces, are being PUNISHED for misbehavior, Saddam never punished his people for being naughty to others)


so an year and half later: no WMD

Okay, we havent found any evidence of banned weapons. It was up to Saddam to prove that he didnt have the banned weapons under the cease fire that ended the first gulf war, not for us to prove that they are there... that's the whole point of inspections... to prove that you've DONE WHAT YOU'VE SAID YOU ARE GOING TO DO! Not to hunt around and play hide and go seek with you... Saddam made a mockery of the international community, and what did most of the international community do in return? Take his bribes? (Need i say oil for palac..err food?)

no terrorist networks.
Plenty of evidence of Answer Al Islam being active in Iraq (and working with the iraqi goverment) after the fall in afganistan... a part of the al-queida network. A terror network, aint it cool?

no osama

I dont remember anyone saying we'd find him in Iraq.

and we torture people almost as worse as Saddam. ironic, eh?

As i said before, we're not on the same planet as far as the shit that Saddam Hussein did to his prisioners... i just heard tonight that an Army 1 Star lost his job as a result of what happened in iraq, and everyone involved with this kind of BS is being investigated and will be brought up on charges. The prision where all of this happened is supposedly being closed at the end of may.

Our forces are doing their best to behave well, we must not allow every american fighting man and woman in iraq to be portrayed as evil... "Evil" is someone who would behead a civilian for wanting to do some work...

[Spyder]

triple snap to Dissman. Well said!

[steaLer]

i'm sorry Robert. i disagree with your responses. and even if, i agree with them, they were not enough to validate an attack on another sovereign state.

[Spyder]

if thats the case, tell me stealer: what would have validated an attack? Waiting around asking nicely for him to prove he doesnt have weapons, let the UN do their thing for another 10 years... until BAM. Holy shit, a nuke just exploded in chicago, new york, washington DC, LA, san diago, boston....

Saddam was a crazy ****er, he did enough to his own people to deserve his removal from power. The problem is that no world leader had the balls to take him out. He was a threat to the world, mainly the US but he wouldnt have stopped there once he attacked us. The simple fact is that the world is better off without him.

[ferret]

if thats the case, tell me stealer: what would have validated an attack? Waiting around asking nicely for him to prove he doesnt have weapons, let the UN do their thing for another 10 years... until BAM. Holy ****, a nuke just exploded in chicago, new york, washington DC, LA, san diago, boston....

Saddam was a crazy ****, he did enough to his own people to deserve his removal from power. The problem is that no world leader had the balls to take him out. He was a threat to the world, mainly the US but he wouldnt have stopped there once he attacked us.

Nearly entirely incorrect. Saddam had no interest in attacking the US, why should he? He has his nation and his oil. What point would it serve for him to attack the US? Maybe Kuwait or Iran again, but for crying outloud. You don't just randomly attack someone for the hell of it, he wasn't that stupid.

He didn't have any proof to show concerning weapons because they DID NOT EXIST. The ones he had before? WE GAVE HIM. He wasn't a threat to anyone outside of the Middle East, and not really even a threat there, since Kuwait. Threat to the US? Maybe to our oil? That's all I can think of.

Now. Saddam is a crazy bastard, and its best he be out of power. But stop qouting Bush's bullshit reasons for doing it. They were pretty pictures to wave at the UN and the world to 'justify' us going there, but they really had nothing to do with anything. All lies, all wrong, all for nothing.

Please remember, everything Saddam has done, he effectively did because of the US. We put him in power. We gave him chemical weapons. We even gave him Anthrax at one point, because we wanted him to beat up Iran.

The US has a history of putting dictators in power, then losing control over them. Saddam is just one of the more recent. See most of Latin America and the Middle East for more.

The most dangerous nation in the Middle East is Israel. Mainly because they have all our weapons, including nuclear weapons (Some given freely, some stolen by their spies). When/if the day comes that we stop supporting Israel, the Islamic terrorism might stop. But I'm scared of what happens when an Arab nation invades Israel and the nukes fly.

[Spyder]

Obviously he wouldnt have been the one to attack us. Once he had the ability to he would make weapons and sell them to the various terrorist networks over there. THEY would use them.

And theres still no proof either way whether or not he had weapons, and thats bad. If he had them, he probably got them out of the country. If he didnt, then wtf was he hiding? He spent the past decade leading the UN inspectors on a goose chase, and for what if he didnt have weapons?

[ferret]

He spent the past decade leading the UN inspectors on a goose chase, and for what if he didnt have weapons?

In regards to this, he didn't have a choice. If he didn't have weapons, he had nothing to show the UN inspectors. Until they found proof he had 'destroyed' the weapons he said he didn't have, they wouldn't leave. Eventually, he DID throw them out.

He didn't spend the decade leading them on a goose chase, per say. He had no choice in the matter. They were there because the UN told them to be.

[Thordic]

The most dangerous nation is Israel, yes. But they are also outnumbered a a thousand to one.

If we ever stopped telling Israel to restrain themselves, the Middle East would be leveled.

And they wouldn't need to use nukes for that. Israel has the most effecient military in the world. They put our army to shame as far as preparation and effeciency goes.

[Spyder]

He spent the past decade leading the UN inspectors on a goose chase, and for what if he didnt have weapons?

In regards to this, he didn't have a choice. If he didn't have weapons, he had nothing to show the UN inspectors. Until they found proof he had 'destroyed' the weapons he said he didn't have, they wouldn't leave. Eventually, he DID throw them out.

He didn't spend the decade leading them on a goose chase, per say. He had no choice in the matter. They were there because the UN told them to be.

What about situations where they would try to inspect various warehouses, and be told they couldnt do that for a number of days for no apparent reason. The inspectors couldnt get a chance to inspect anything, because the iraqis we're stalling them for time whenever they went anywhere so they could do something.

On top of that, iraq is huge... he could have any number of underground facilities in the middle of nowhere that are just storage facilities for stuff.

[ferret]

What about situations where they would try to inspect various warehouses, and be told they couldnt do that for a number of days for no apparent reason. The inspectors couldnt get a chance to inspect anything, because the iraqis we're stalling them for time whenever they went anywhere so they could do something.

On top of that, iraq is huge... he could have any number of underground facilities in the middle of nowhere that are just storage facilities for stuff

I agree, he had something. But chances are its long gone, and we gave it to him anyways. Iraq isn't as big as the make it out to be. Its large, but not amazingly so. About the size of CA.

[Spyder]

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php

[Spyder]

hehe, heres something my mom sent me:

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's one plan.

1. The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Noriega, Milosovich and the rest of those good ol' boys: We will never "interfere" again.

2. We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one sneaking through holes in the fence.

3. All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.

4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5. No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" (for "deport") and it's back home baby.

6. The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non-polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7. Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

8. If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them is stolen or given to the Army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9. Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The language we speak is ENGLISH.....learn it...or LEAVE...

Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.
The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses." She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, "You want a piece of me?"

[ferret]

That's what Robin Williams said. I agree with most of it.

[[NAKED] Mithis]

http://www.paulcouture.com/content.php?art=iraqwar

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/crs/Crsiraq2.htm

[Spyder]

http://www.paulcouture.com/content.php?art=iraqwar

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/crs/Crsiraq2.htm

again during August-November 1998, Iraq has hampered the efforts of U.N. inspectors on numerous occasions or ended cooperation altogether, prompting Security Council condemnations, resolutions imposing further sanctions, and threats of military action.

...5 years later he's still doing it, and the UN is still asking "pretty please?"

[steaLer]

if thats the case, tell me stealer: what would have validated an attack?
well Spyder, i'm not sure what would it take for a country to attack another sovreign country, but whatever it is, it's more than what Bush had. mere allegations/prior history is not sufficient.

i could name a dozen countries that we should have interefered, but we didn't. i'm not saying we couldn't start with iraq, i'm merely saying, it was a very politically/financially motivated move.

[Spyder]

it was a very politically/financially motivated move.

when has a president ever done something that wasnt?

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

Touche'

[[NAKED] Mithis]

i really think your reaching there stealer. To be honest we had all we needed to go in against iraq since the clinton era. They violated a cease fire agreement along time ago. There was never a end to the hostilities from the 1st DS. The only thing that stopped the war was the cease fire agreement. I didn't end it. Technically we are still at war status with north korea to be honest but they haven't violated the cease fire there. It is just one big stale mate. Another thing that allowed us is the large amount of resolutions passed by the UN and violoted by iraq. We now are learning that nothing was ever enforced because for certain European nations the war was about oil. Yet for us it was not. I don't see how this was a political move. No president in thier right mind would think that. If i remember right before iraq his approval rating was in the high 60s low 70s.

[The_Squigee]

Please remember, everything Saddam has done, he effectively did because of the US. We put him in power.

Sir before you post please go back and double check your facts. We had nothing to do with Saddam going into power.

The Iraqi president was born in a village just outside Takrit in April 1937. In his teenage years, he immersed himself in the anti-British and anti-Western atmosphere of the day. At college in Baghdad he joined the Baath party.

After the overthrow of the monarchy in 1958, Saddam connived in a plot to kill the prime minister, Abdel-Karim Qassem. But the conspiracy was discovered, and Saddam fled the country.

In 1963, with the Baath party in control in Baghdad, Saddam Hussein returned home and began jostling for a position of influence.

But within months, the Baath party had been overthrown and he was jailed, remaining there until the party returned to power in a coup in July 1968. Showing ruthless determination that was to become a hallmark of his leadership, Saddam Hussein gained a position on the ruling Revolutionary Command Council.

For years he was the power behind the ailing figure of the president, Ahmed Hassan Bakr. In 1979, he achieved his ambition of becoming head of state. The new president started as he intended to go on - putting to death dozens of his rivals.

theres the rest of his story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1100529.stm)

oh and about the weapons he supposedly was to destroy he used them against us in the last war and no they weren't WMD's they were long reaching SCUDs direvtly in violation of the UN cease-fire agreement

and i agree isreal is the most dangerous nation in the area they proved that in the 7 days war and yes they have nuclear capability which almost happened in the 7 days war. Isreal right now is trying to leave parts of the gaza strip in accordance for the US backed Road Map to Peace yet Palestein continues to kill IDF forces when all they are trying to do is get out . I say let Isreal either kill arafat or bring his terrorist ass to justice.

[Azrael]

oh and about the weapons he supposedly was to destroy he used them against us in the last war and no they weren't WMD's they were long reaching SCUDs direvtly in violation of the UN cease-fire agreement

I think the problem most people have with the war in Iraq is not that Saddam didn't deserve it. It isn't that he didn't violate numerous treaties and cease-fires. It is that the main reason that we are over there, WMD's, have not been found. It makes it seem like the current administration needed a better reason to invade and remove Saddam then just on GP, so they decided on WMD's, something that the American people, and the people of the world, might support. If that's the case, that sort of manipulation is disgusting.

[Spyder]

I know that is what everyone differs in opinion about. I beleive that the administration truely did beleive there are WMD's over there. I beleive Saddam had them, or at least would have them in the future if left untouched. And as I stated before, its not saddam and iraq that i fear would use them, he would most likely sell them to the various terrorist networks who would use them. Regardless, Saddam did need to be removed from power. At the moment we wasnt much of a threat to the rest of the world, but what he did to his own people was bad enough. I know its not our job to do it, It's the UN's job. And they ARENT doing their job. Someone had to get it done.

[[NAKED] Mithis]

oh and about the weapons he supposedly was to destroy he used them against us in the last war and no they weren't WMD's they were long reaching SCUDs direvtly in violation of the UN cease-fire agreement

I think the problem most people have with the war in Iraq is not that Saddam didn't deserve it. It isn't that he didn't violate numerous treaties and cease-fires. It is that the main reason that we are over there, WMD's, have not been found. It makes it seem like the current administration needed a better reason to invade and remove Saddam then just on GP, so they decided on WMD's, something that the American people, and the people of the world, might support. If that's the case, that sort of manipulation is disgusting.


What do you mean did didn't have them. He used them on his own people. We also know that he had anthrax. This is because unfortantly we gave it to him because cold war politicas were different than todays. Unfortantly for the mistakes of the past we are in the situtation we are now. Yet these mistakes seemed needed at the time. I said this before and i will say it again. Iraq had these weapons. My fear is that with all the stalling he was able to give them away.

[SavaThePriest]

I agree with the Foam- it requires a sea of glass.

[AirFoam]

i see it now, we could be in guiness... worlds largest man made piece of glass.

[Azrael]

What do you mean did didn't have them. He used them on his own people.

He used WMD's on his own people? Um. No. Not since he was barred from having them. He used them in the Iraq-Iran war, and I've heard against the Kurds as well, but both these were before the UN got on him. Actually, those were the reasons the UN banned him from possessing them.

I said this before and i will say it again. Iraq had these weapons. My fear is that with all the stalling he was able to give them away.

Okay. You can say it all you want, but the UN never found them, and we haven't found them yet after looking for oh, a year now. He may have had them. But the problem is that we have no proof. That does not make the US look good in the international community.

[Spyder]

Okay. You can say it all you want, but the UN never found them, and we haven't found them yet after looking for oh, a year now. He may have had them. But the problem is that we have no proof. That does not make the US look good in the international community.

The UN never found them because Saddam never let them go where they wanted to go. And to phrase that correctly, it should be "we've only been there for a year."

I tell you what, I'll go bury a penny on a football field and give you 20 minutes to find it. Deal?

[MoreYangThanYin]

we killed many more just by our trigger fingers and torture in prison
id like to know when we ever killed any of the people we had prisoner
and some people claim this is "an eye for an eye" when thats ****, being covered in a black shroud with wires tired to you is NOT getting your head cut off and being video taped, then posted on the internet as a trophy. just drop a nuke on the middle east, **** the environment, **** it all, mostly **** them
I'd hate to sit it but i agree really. Its too much trouble than all the deaths of Americans. I'm sad for teh deaths of Iraqis 2 but deep down i don't give a shit about them as much as i do about us. I have a cousin over there and shes been shot at in atleast 3 fire fights in 1 month. She tells us she won't tell us about them all so we won't worry. This is BS. Evac us. Take as much oil as we can so we can save something from that barren asshole of a wasteland. Nuke it. Anyone has problems. Nuke them. We risk world war but atleast you know that we tried.

[ArchAngelKIng]

The only real way to combat them and win is to fight fire with fire, a la John Travolta in swordfish, but that will never happen.

I begg to differ here Spyder. It did happen! and it is happing and it will happen again. After 9/11 a plane load of saudi citizens namely the "Bin Ladden" family were sent back home when 99% of Americans where stranded around the world, in Halifax, Canada, Toronto Canada, UK, and Europe. But these people had not problem getting home 3 days later. hmmm.

Diplomatic Terrorists are sent back to their homeland every once in a while but you never hear of it. The U.S. had many middle eastern enemies and they have only increased by a factor of about 100000000 times since the IRAQI war.

Believe me you haven't seen nothing yet! They will come again now they have the worlds attention and a powerful organization world wide.

The only thing Bush has been succesful at is hitting the bees nest! He's done nothing to stamp out Terrorism. Did you know the Taleban has reorganized in Afganistan? Did you know their attacks in Afganistan has increased?

How many Terrorists are in the US and Canada. Many I would expect.


Cheers,

AAK

[SavaThePriest]

It's not the man with hundreds of nuclear weapons that we should fear- it's the man with one.

[Dissman]

Anyone read today's news? Well, other than me?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33082-2004May17.html

I dont think i need to say any more.

[Azrael]

The UN never found them because Saddam never let them go where they wanted to go. And to phrase that correctly, it should be "we've only been there for a year."

I tell you what, I'll go bury a penny on a football field and give you 20 minutes to find it. Deal?

Excuse me? Don't tell me how I meant to phrase things. That is downright rude.

A year is a LONG time. When this plan was presented, Bush absolutely did not express that this might take as long as it currently has. And you know what? We aren't even close to being ready to turn the government over to a new Iraqi state. Which is the problem that many people have with him now.

[[NAKED] Mithis]

The only thing Bush has been succesful at is hitting the bees nest! He's done nothing to stamp out Terrorism. Did you know the Taleban has reorganized in Afganistan? Did you know their attacks in Afganistan has increased?

How many Terrorists are in the US and Canada. Many I would expect.


Cheers,

AAK

LOL that's funny. They have? Where? really show me. In a nation the size of Afganistan, where do they hide their reorganized army?




He used WMD's on his own people? Um. No. Not since he was barred from having them. He used them in the Iraq-Iran war, and I've heard against the Kurds as well, but both these were before the UN got on him. Actually, those were the reasons the UN banned him from possessing them.

Umm yeah he did. Last i checked the Kurds were still iraqis, thus his own people. Plus the UN never did jack to stop him we did. The weapons will turn up i just don't know when and where.

[ArchAngelKIng]

LOL that's funny. They have? Where? really show me. In a nation the size of Afganistan, where do they hide their reorganized army?


They are in the Afganistan mountains a place that has saved them many many times in history. Even the Russain Army couldn't dislodge them from the mountains. These mountains ranges at the North Eastern part of Afganistan serve as an excellent place to hide. That's why Sweeden is so protected from wars because of the mountains.

I don't know if you get the same news as we do but our news papers are reporting increased attacks on Canadian and U.S. forces in Afganistan by Taleban forces that have reorganized.

Also if you know anything about Pakistan you'll know that really the Norhern part of that country really isn't Pakistan, the area is controlled by Tribal Leaders that shelter and support the Taliban. They have done so for years and years. Not even the Pakistan army likes to tred on these grounds and must have permission to do so by the Tribal leaders.

Cheers,

AAK.

[Spyder]

The UN never found them because Saddam never let them go where they wanted to go. And to phrase that correctly, it should be "we've only been there for a year."

I tell you what, I'll go bury a penny on a football field and give you 20 minutes to find it. Deal?

Excuse me? Don't tell me how I meant to phrase things. That is downright rude.

A year is a LONG time. When this plan was presented, Bush absolutely did not express that this might take as long as it currently has. And you know what? We aren't even close to being ready to turn the government over to a new Iraqi state. Which is the problem that many people have with him now.

quit changing your context. A year is a long time for the war in general, but its not a long time at all when your searching for something that could be anywhere in the country. You original used it in the context that it was the time we've been there to find the weapons, and i was saying that if you're going to talk about it like that, then we have barely been there long enough.

[[NAKED] Mithis]

The UN never found them because Saddam never let them go where they wanted to go. And to phrase that correctly, it should be "we've only been there for a year."

I tell you what, I'll go bury a penny on a football field and give you 20 minutes to find it. Deal?

Excuse me? Don't tell me how I meant to phrase things. That is downright rude.

A year is a LONG time. When this plan was presented, Bush absolutely did not express that this might take as long as it currently has. And you know what? We aren't even close to being ready to turn the government over to a new Iraqi state. Which is the problem that many people have with him now.


Actually he did. He said the rebuilding of iraq would not be an easy task. That it would be a hard, long task. But the USA would stay it's course in rebuilding iraq. I had dissman record something on the news the other day and as soon as i can get it off him i will post the video up for you to see how much rebuilding has been done.,

[ArchAngelKIng]

rebuilding? REBUILDING? did u say rebuilding?

Ok, you must be living in the other universe where IRAQ is rebuilding.

In the universe where I live, as far as I can see on CNN, there is another building, car, or person being blown up! BOOM! I don't think there's much rebuilding goin on. Ok, a few schools are opened for girls to attend now. Great! That only true when the Shites aren't using them for weapon storage. :-(

The military is just trying to stay alive or stay out of jail from the prison scandal and stay one step from complete disaster!

I really don't understand why more troops I mean like 100,000 or more troops are not deployed as additional forces. Clearly they are needed. clearly the IRAQ is gonna be handed over to some mishmash government that can barely get to work alive everyday!

The answer is more Troops, more TROOPS, MORE TROOPS!!!!!!

Cheers,

AAK

[Spyder]

Actually iraq IS rebuilding. Every now and then you find a reporter over there actually showing it, but for the most part the media is just showing the bad side of whats going on because it makes a good story. If you watch the reports that show all the capitolism thats emerging over there, all the businesses that are popping up, then you really see whats happening. All the terrorism is a small part of whats actually going on over there.

[ArchAngelKIng]

IRAQ Destruction and Death:

It only took about 10 mintues for the proof. Ya I know what you mean, it's hard to believe but it's true. Even the Oil pipe line has been sabotaged like 4 times now. There is too much death and destruction that far out weighs any minisule achievements made.

There is an overwhelming volume of destruction here! Where's the building? Ya I know, they have news papers now that they can say anything they want but then the U.S. Army closed down one in Najaf becuase they didn't like what they said. Welcome to democracy and free speech? duh!

Proof, you want proof. go read this proof.

BBC Timeline: See for yourself, I don't see any building going on in the time line?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/737483.stm

snipet....
2004 April/May - Shia militias loyal to radical cleric Moqtada Sadr take on coalition forces.
Hundreds reported killed in fighting during month-long US military siege of Sunni Muslim city of Falluja.
Photographic evidence emerges of abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US troops.
The head of Iraq's US-appointed Governing Council, Ezzedine Salim, is killed in a car bomb blast at a check point outside the US-led coalition HQ in Baghdad. Ghazi Ajil al-Yawer is appointed Mr Salim's successor.

....snipet.

CBS: Nope no building here.
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/iraq/main500257.shtml

CBS: all about destruction
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/america_at_war/postwar/home_governing.html

Time Magazine Next Weeks Issue: The word build is not mentioned once!
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040524/wstrategy.html

MSN: more death and destruction
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5007815/

US demolishes Holy Sites in IRAQ:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=5&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_iraq_us

No Plan:
Committee Chairman Dick Lugar said the American people - and the world - had to be confident that the US had a carefully thought-out plan for success in Iraq.
Feingold said they were never given answers, because he believes, "there wasn't a serious plan."

U.S. Forces Clash with Ceric
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1901041
Sarin Gas Attack:
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1901043

Iraq disaster isn't coming to and end, it's only just begun:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/16360.html

Destruction of Iraqi homes within rules of war, spokesman says:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/7293440.htm?1c

State of Siege; As Rebellion flares up...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/covers/0,16641,1101040419,00.html

Time Magazine weekly covers, NOT 1 about building IRAQ
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/coversearch?query=Iraq

[ArchAngelKIng]

Now Afganistan!

Really this is too easy to find the failures of Afganistan: After reading all these articles there is a raging war that continues. Your being lied to by your media! CNN doesn't cover this stuff. But the truth is out there!

Progress in Afghanistan "insufficient": UN special envoy
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1535&ncid=1898&e=3&u=/afp/20040517/wl_sthasia_afp/afghanistan_un_040517052453

Now Afganistan Prisoner Abuse:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1106&ncid=1106&e=9&u=/ft/20040517/bs_ft/1083180539796

U.S. GI Dies in Attack in S. Afghanistan: May 2004

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&ncid=1898&e=4&u=/ap/20040516/ap_on_re_as/afghan_us_soldier_killed_5

Six Factional Fighters Killed in Afghan North: May 2004

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=574&e=12&u=/nm/20040514/wl_nm/afghan_ambush_dc_1

Taliban Kill Two Afghan Soldiers: May 12, 2004
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&ncid=1898&e=5&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_re_as/afghan_taliban_attacks_1

Revenge is the mission as Marines push into Taliban heartland:
"Corporal Payne was our KIA (Killed In Action)."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1535&ncid=1898&e=4&u=/afp/20040513/wl_sthasia_afp/afghanistan_us_attacks_040513034211

Rocket Hits Peacekeepers Base in Kabul:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&ncid=1898&e=6&u=/ap/20040511/ap_on_re_as/afghan_explosion_1

[Dissman]

IRAQ Destruction and Death:

It only took about 10 mintues for the proof. Ya I know what you mean, it's hard to believe but it's true. Even the Oil pipe line has been sabotaged like 4 times now. There is too much death and destruction that far out weighs any minisule achievements made.



I shouldnt even go here, but i have the story of all of the good that we are doing from Fox News on my PVR.. tapes/transcripts are unavailable from fox news for the particular show, but i'll find a way to get it to you if you want.

Our media, has a "If it bleeds, it leads, mentality." How often do you hear of all of the good things that happen in this country, our news is replete with something burning, something dying... they think if they printed all of the good stuff that happened even here that they wouldnt sell papers.

In Iraq it's the same way, they have people constantly running down the things that are bad happening, yet never the good... Fox News recently did a segment on it, anything below has been taken somewhat closely from that story, since there is no transcript... anything in quotes or attributed to a person is EXACTLY as heard by me.

Good Things that have came by the U.S. Invasion & Occupation
1. End to Systematic Torture/Murder... Investigators have found dozens of mass graves, containing at least 300,000 iraqi bodies.

2. Ending Of Money Theft... Since 1991, Saddam built 48 palaces, when his regieme said it did not have money to build housing. An Investigation has found that Saddam has stolen more than $11 Billion From the UN's Oil for food program.

3. Ending the threat of WMD... During Saddam's time in power he possessed Chemical and Biological Weapons and actively pursued Nuclear Weaponry.

Quality of Life
"Daily life has improved dramatically for the average iraqi since the fall of Saddam"

Under the old regieme, little money was spent on education, and there was no schedule for maintaining school facilities. So far 2,500 schools have been renovated... with another 800 to be finished soon.

Statements on Camera from 2 Little Iraqi Girls (Translated):
"They put in Electricity for us and a fan for us to get some air and i say thanks to god" Samar Mohammed

"Before the school was dirty and not clean and even the bathroom was not good. This year they made a new bathroom for us. And they changed the building and painted it well"

Moreover: What children learn has also changed, gone are government firings if teachers did not teach the Baath party line...

9 Million New Math & Science books have been printed and distributed, old books were filled with pro-saddam propaganda.


Health Care:
Under Saddam the Ministry of Health spent 16 million
The current budget is 1 Billion

The current system is open to all iraqis.. Doctors that used to earn $20 a month, now earn $180

Modern Medication is now available, something unheard of during Saddam's regieme.

Areas of human rights:
Legal System:
A fully functional legal & judicial system has been implemented with over 600 judges... "Iraqis charged with crimes now have rights that have been laughed at under the old regieme"

The Right to Remain Silent
The Right to a fair, speedy and open trial
The right to a defense lawyer at all stages of the process.

New Basic Freedoms:
The Right to Free Speech

Street protests are routine, something in the past that would have got them killed.

Something approaching freedom of the press:

A Woman, who is unnamed said in english: "Before we write what they tell us to write. Now, we write what we believe."

120 papers are being published, some critical of the US. The Coalition has shut down only two papers, which they said were inciting violence.

Internet Cafe's: Before, few have access to computers, or to the internet (Which was government montored and controlled) now people can communicate, or sound off in web blogs.

Sattelite Dishes: 1/3'rd of Iraqi Households now recieve news from around the world... something that was banned under Saddam


Economy and Infastructure
New Currency: Replaces two currencies, with one stable form of currency

Oil: Production Exceeds Pre-War Levels, 1/2 a million barrels more than prewar levels than when saddam was forced. Occasional Gasoline Shortages mean that US Soldiers need to guard refueling stations.

Utilities: By this summer, the average Iraqi will have power for 16 hours a day, 40% above prewar levels.

Water: 1/2 of the country had access to clean drinking water, extensive renovations have brought clean drinking water to 15 million more people on a reliable basis. Before the war, few areas had proper sewage facilities... one example, in mosul, a neighborhood was swamped with sewage for almost 17 years. The US Army spent $40,000 to hire local workers to fix the problems.


Laurie Dhue - "We're not making it up folks, as you've seen there are a lot of positive things going on in Iraq. After suffering through decades of abuse"

And that's the segment.

If you think that nothing positive is happening there, you are dead wrong, enough said, and finding bad things and posting them as if there's nothing good going on would be like pulling your local paper and doing the same thing... just becuase the media isnt reporting it means it doesnt happen.

These are FAR from miniscule... and i wont even go into afganistan... who has had FREE ELECTIONS and now for the first time in as long as i've been alive has a REPRESENTATIVE government

[[NAKED] Mithis]

Thank you Dissman



Show me proof of no rebuilding taking place or that of very little. Its ignorant of you in my opinion to do this like you have.


Did you even read what i told you to prove. You can show all the bad things you want. I think that has been established. I asked to you show me proof that very little or no rebuilding has taken place. Which is something you said in a earlier post.

rebuilding? REBUILDING? did u say rebuilding?

Ok, you must be living in the other universe where IRAQ is rebuilding.


That was the most retarded post i have ever read in my honest and humble opinion. I mean to tell me i must be in another universe is a pretty strong statement if I may say so myself. Then not back it up. I mean come on. I suppose I am the evil Mithis too taking the place of the good one from this Universe.

Anyhow back on topic. Also in that segment they addressed a city (forgive me because i forget the name.) that had never had clean water. NEVER!! Now they do. They mentioned the fact that before most iraqis did not have electric on a regular basis. Now they have it up to 16 hrs a day. Now once again i would like you to prove to me that little or no building is taking place. Just give me some tiny bit of proof that nothing is happening. I mean think about it if 2500 school have been fixed and built in one year with 800 more almost done. Now i don't know how fast construction takes in canada but somehow building one school takes about a year. Remodeling takes about 8 months. So prove to me nothing has been done or very little. If you can do this I will have to concede i am the evil Kirk ... umm i mean Mithis.

[ArchAngelKIng]

First of all this is just my opinion based on the facts as I understand them and it is not a personal attack on anyone.


Show me proof of no rebuilding taking place or that of very little. Its ignorant of you in my opinion to do this like you have.


No this is your job to prove there is rebuilding. My position is that there is very little if any rebuilding going on. How can I find proof of something I claim doesn't exist. The fact that the absence of these rebuilding articles is proof in itself that IRAQ is not being rebuilt but is in fact still being destroyed by death and destruction.


Did you even read what i told you to prove. You can show all the bad things you want. I think that has been established. I asked to you show me proof that very little or no rebuilding has taken place. Which is something you said in a earlier post.


I said death and destruction is taking place and very little rebuilding if any is going on. Again, miniscule efforts have done some token efforts to make this claim of rebuilding but more death destruction goes on each day that completely negates any progress or efforts made to build anything. More buildings, Mosques, Temples, homes, cars, water pipelines, oil pipelines, etc.. are being destroyed that any efforts to rebuild are intagible or insignificant in comparison.


Anyhow back on topic. Also in that segment they addressed a city (forgive me because i forget the name.) that had never had clean water. NEVER!! Now they do.

Well this claim is totally misleading. People NEED water to live. So they must have had water or they'd be dead in 1 week without it. Ok, they NEVER had piped in water. Ok, you saved them a trip to the river to fetch water. Wow big deal! The fact is they lived there without it. Again a token effort that made the news one day at the beging of the war in 2003. Is that water still flowing today? or did the insergence blow that up, like thay have 4 times with the oil pipelines.



. If you can do this I will have to concede i am the evil Kirk ... umm i mean Mithis.


I don't really care if you concecde or not. I've done my Job proving to myself and anyone who reads the proof that there is more death and destruction going on than any rebuilding efforts and that's what I've done!


AAK

[ArchAngelKIng]

This is my opinion, proven by the proof I submitted, not a personal attack on anyone.

As of yet I still haven't seen any proof of rebuilding but I do accept your word of this in your arguement but I disagree with you completely about any progress or rebuilding efforts. More death and destruction is taking place that negates any progress made.


Our media, has a "If it bleeds, it leads, mentality." How often do you hear of all of the good things that happen in this country, our news is replete with something burning, something dying... they think if they printed all of the good stuff that happened even here that they wouldnt sell papers.


Agreed!


Good Things that have came by the U.S. Invasion & Occupation
1. End to Systematic Torture/Murder... Investigators have found dozens of mass graves, containing at least 300,000 iraqi bodies.


For your fist example is not really good one since the U.S. has been proven to tortue/murder pow's. in IRAQ and now in Afganistan are investigations of the same thing. You could have picked a better leading example.


2. Ending Of Money Theft... Since 1991, Saddam built 48 palaces, when his regieme said it did not have money to build housing. An Investigation has found that Saddam has stolen more than $11 Billion From the UN's Oil for food program.


Agreed, but this second example only shows that Saddam did more rebuilding than what's going on now. But Agreed he was a bastard that stole money from the poor, sick and weak.


3. Ending the threat of WMD... During Saddam's time in power he possessed Chemical and Biological Weapons and actively pursued Nuclear Weaponry.


Agreed, but this third example has nothing to do with the argument. I'm not arguing that he wasn't a world threat. He was! But it should have been handled via the U.N. process.


Quality of Life
"Daily life has improved dramatically for the average iraqi since the fall of Saddam"


The absente of "rule of law" enforcement has made prisoners of almost all IRAQI's. I think that there has been no improvement to anyone life by this war. Only the hope that there will be a better life without Saddam but that hasn't happened yet.


Under the old regieme, little money was spent on education, and there was no schedule for maintaining school facilities. So far 2,500 schools have been renovated... with another 800 to be finished soon.


Wow, that's significant progress. Finally something I can sink my teeth into. Ok, are these the schools that are bing used for weapon storage in Najaf? Ok, I already said previously that some schools reopened to little girls now.


Statements on Camera from 2 Little Iraqi Girls (Translated):
"They put in Electricity for us and a fan for us to get some air and i say thanks to god" Samar Mohammed

"Before the school was dirty and not clean and even the bathroom was not good. This year they made a new bathroom for us. And they changed the building and painted it well"

Moreover: What children learn has also changed, gone are government firings if teachers did not teach the Baath party line...

9 Million New Math & Science books have been printed and distributed, old books were filled with pro-saddam propaganda.


Encouraging but I don't call this real substantal progress. Token efforts. Nothing really that affects the daily life of the majority of people. Living in a country without any security, rule of law doesn't make anyone want to leave their children at school.


Health Care:
Under Saddam the Ministry of Health spent 16 million
The current budget is 1 Billion

The current system is open to all iraqis.. Doctors that used to earn $20 a month, now earn $180

Modern Medication is now available, something unheard of during Saddam's regieme.


Agreed. Saddam stole the money from the sick, poor and weak as stated earlier.


Areas of human rights:
Legal System:
A fully functional legal & judicial system has been implemented with over 600 judges... "Iraqis charged with crimes now have rights that have been laughed at under the old regieme"

The Right to Remain Silent
The Right to a fair, speedy and open trial
The right to a defense lawyer at all stages of the process.


Without police in large numbers enforcing this is meaningless. There are very little IRAQI police. They have suffered death and destruction in vast numbers many times.


120 papers are being published, some critical of the US. The Coalition has shut down only two papers, which they said were inciting violence.


What happened to Free Speach? So because the U.S. doesn't like what printed, it shuts them down. Free Speach is the freedom to speak against the powers that are in control. To say things that are not popular. This is anti-democratic and against everything we stand for. The "inciting violence" is only an excuse to shut them down. 120 other news papers would have balanced anything 2 papers had to say. The shutting down of these papers have done more damage to democracy than good. Please don't defend this position, clearly it is wrong for any democracy to do this.


Economy and Infastructure
New Currency: Replaces two currencies, with one stable form of currency

Oil: Production Exceeds Pre-War Levels, 1/2 a million barrels more than prewar levels than when saddam was forced. Occasional Gasoline Shortages mean that US Soldiers need to guard refueling stations.

Utilities: By this summer, the average Iraqi will have power for 16 hours a day, 40% above prewar levels.

Water: 1/2 of the country had access to clean drinking water, extensive renovations have brought clean drinking water to 15 million more people on a reliable basis. Before the war, few areas had proper sewage facilities... one example, in mosul, a neighborhood was swamped with sewage for almost 17 years. The US Army spent $40,000 to hire local workers to fix the problems.


Since your oil nubers are incorrect I find it hard that these are facts. The prewar oil production was second to non. In my proof they are up to 1.8 million barrels day almost pre-war levels. I maybe wrong but 2.5 million barrels a day flowed when Saddam was in power.


If you think that nothing positive is happening there, you are dead wrong, enough said, and finding bad things and posting them as if there's nothing good going on would be like pulling your local paper and doing the same thing... just becuase the media isnt reporting it means it doesnt happen.


All I'm saying is that more death and destruction take place everyday that actually negates any progress being made. I'm sure there is a lot of good going on but that doesn't mean progress or that IRAQ is being rebuilt.


These are FAR from miniscule... and i wont even go into afganistan... who has had FREE ELECTIONS and now for the first time in as long as i've been alive has a REPRESENTATIVE government


No, it's really just miniscule if any progress being made. My proof has shown that beyond doubt.

Afganistan, still does not have a REPRESENTATIVE government as of tody. September 2004 is a possible date for these elections but I believe this will fail because the Taliban are resurging again and will prevent people from voting. A few bombs strategically placed at election time will prevent the majority of people from voting due to retributions or retailations of tribal leaders.

[ArchAngelKIng]

Ok, I'll give you free enterprises are starting but that's a long way from rebuilding. I think more destruction is going on than rebuilding. Ya, I know the media likes to sensationalize the bombs and excitement and I think I can differentiate what's really going on.

Just look at Afganistan. They are a long long way from building a democracy over there. Wasn't there supposed to be elections after the 1st year. NOT. The intrim government voted for another year of power and so it goes on and on and on. Atleast they had the forces necessary to win the war quickly chase out all the enemies and start a government. Although new attacks from the Taliban are escalating threatening to destabilze the whole works.

The same thing will happen with IRAQ you'll see. I think this intrim government won't even get off the ground 1 month. Come August there may not be any government alive, only time will tell.

[Azrael]

Umm yeah he did. Last i checked the Kurds were still iraqis, thus his own people. Plus the UN never did jack to stop him we did. The weapons will turn up i just don't know when and where.

Please, please read the context before you respond. I know the Kurds are his people, which is why I put them in there. But my response was to you impying that he had used them on his own people since he was banned from having them. He has not. As far as anyone can PROVE (and that is important as we are Americans) he has had no WMD's since he was told to be rid of them. You have a feeling the weapons will turn up. Okay, that's great. So does Bush. Maybe I do too. But the point is, we can't PROVE a thing.

[Azrael]

quit changing your context. A year is a long time for the war in general, but its not a long time at all when your searching for something that could be anywhere in the country. You original used it in the context that it was the time we've been there to find the weapons, and i was saying that if you're going to talk about it like that, then we have barely been there long enough.

I never changed my context. I was talking about the search for weapons the whole time. That was what the war was started over. They are one and the same. And I'm sorry, but if we can't find proof of why we are over there for over a year, that's just not good. I don't care how hard you think it might be, it's just too long from saying we need to stop him to we have proof of why we needed to stop him.

[Azrael]

Sorry for all the posts in a row, but I have finals currently and couldn't check this for a while.

I just wanted to point out the the majority of AAK's sources are CBS/CNN/Anything else and the majority of Mithis' are FoxNews. It seems to me that both sides are putting their own slant on what is happening over there. There is both good and bad. Steps forward and back. Are we were we need to be to hand the government over to them by the deadline? I doubt it. But I do think that now that we are there, we have an obligation to stay.

[ArchAngelKIng]

quit changing your context. A year is a long time for the war in general, but its not a long time at all when your searching for something that could be anywhere in the country. You original used it in the context that it was the time we've been there to find the weapons, and i was saying that if you're going to talk about it like that, then we have barely been there long enough.

I never changed my context. I was talking about the search for weapons the whole time. That was what the war was started over. They are one and the same. And I'm sorry, but if we can't find proof of why we are over there for over a year, that's just not good. I don't care how hard you think it might be, it's just too long from saying we need to stop him to we have proof of why we needed to stop him.

Agreed, a year is far too long, especially after Colon Powell had the so called mountain of intelligence that he presented at the U.N.. It was presented that they already knew where this stuff was before they started this war. The world was given the impression that we just need to dis-arm Saddam. But now a year later and nothing?

I agree with Azrael, these WMD's should have been discovered quickly and shown to the world that the war is just and relavant to the reasons it was presented at the U.N.


There is both good and bad. Steps forward and back. Are we were we need to be to hand the government over to them by the deadline? I doubt it. But I do think that now that we are there, we have an obligation to stay.


Agreed, the job must be completed until the end, millions of lives are depending that a free and democratic country will emerge. I still believe that the U.N. could play a vital role in the new IRAQ if Bush would just give other countries a stake in futures of IRAQ. I'm talking about the building that will happen later on when all the fighting is finished.

I know many countries have approached the Pres. Bush about contracts in IRAQ but Bush won't give anyone contracts unless they sign up with soldiers. I think that's backwards. If the French, German, Canadian, or what ever country has people in the country making money then they will more likey want to send troops to protect them.

AAK

[Spyder]

Oh I'll agree that its not going fast, but it IS happening. On one of the news bits i cought a while back (the ones about the bright side of iraq are few and far between :() had a reporter getting some food from a local cafe, and talking to some people on the streets. It was wierd. Aside from the fact that everyone was speaking arabic, you could have mistaken it for parts of some major metropolis here in the US. Lots of people, cars, storefronts, and at the time there was a HUGE amount of goods just stacked on the sidewalk waiting to be delivered. He asked some of the citizens how life was, and all of them said that it was much much better already than it was with Saddam. Now, i'm not submitting that as proof or anything... they could have said that only because the Americans were there with guns, for all we know about what happens over there, theyre used to that sort of leadership change. All i'm saying is that they did say it.

Of course, that was all before the extremists started popping up and wreaking havoc on the country. I know the current situation is bad, but the developement is still there, and they are rebuilding.

[[NAKED] Mithis]

Actually mr. mrs angel or whatever. The video i am talking about shows alot about the rebuilding. It was a great piece done by fox magazine. You need to look in your facts before you post from now on. You have no factual base to state you claims that you are making so far in this arguement. Frankly I am personally tired of reading your claims with out facts to back them. Show me proof of no rebuilding taking place or that of very little. Its ignorant of you in my opinion to do this like you have.

[AirFoam]

meet AAK mithis, get used to it.

[Dissman]

I'm not going to bother to backquote at this time, pretty much because it's like 3 AM and i'm too ****ing lazy to do it.

But to AAK's near point by point rebuttal to my paraphrase of a story... Look.. i did *not* choose the order, i went and basically got as close to the actual story as possible without going back over and over again and keying every word, which I probably should. I think that the entire concept of *nothing good* happening over in Iraq is just simply preposterous...

As for Azrael, if Saddam didnt possess any WMD's... why was a Saddam era artillery shell filled with Sarin Gas used in a roadside bomb?

[ArchAngelKIng]

I think that the entire concept of *nothing good* happening over in Iraq is just simply preposterous...


Well that is not my arguement in statement. I was stating that IRAQ is not being "rebuilt" or making "progress" and any efforts to rebuild IRAQ is back tracked by the death and destruction that occurs later on.

I'm sure that there are *good things* happening in IRAQ but that doesn't mean progress or that IRAQ is being rebuilt. It certainly doesn't mean that the quality of life is good either. Having Satilite TV in my opinion is really not what IRAQI's need or what I'd call making progress.

Progress and rebuilding need certain conditions to exist.

1. less death and destruction vs birth rate and building
2. A security force that can enforce the peace of the people
3. A stable governement to represent the population for building efforts, and less concerned with the daily security of the government itself.
4. Quality of life improvement issues


I just think that #1 is far from being saticefied and the building efforts are all in vien until death and destruction stops, security starts and a stable government starts building activities.

What I think is preposterous is the notion that IRAQ is making progress or being rebuilt as current events cotradict that statement.

Cheers,

AAK

[[NAKED] Young DVP]

My opinion on the matter is as follows:

'It's a process... NOT an event."

Iraq is still a horrible place to be right now - and for the forseeable future. But it's better in some ways than it has been in decades. That's progress.

It will not (nor was it expected to) be Pleasantville, USA just because we threw out Saddam. There are still a lot of minds that need to be changed. My hope is that they can be changed.

We don't want anyone to change their religion. Just to stop killing in its name.

[[NAKED] Mithis]

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/foodsec.html

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/updates/may04/iraq_fs31_051104.pdf

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_marshlands.pdf

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_demgov_0504.pdf

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/airports.html

http://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/pdf/contracts/another_contract_in_place_constr_iraq.pdf

http://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/pdf/021_pmo_iraqi_participation.pdf

http://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/pdf/023_no_protests.pdf

[Dissman]

Go Mithis

[[NAKED] Mithis]

Current Projects
Ongoing Projects in Iraq:
73 Sites

Work Underway:
$1.93 Billion (in construction)

that would be in constrution alone. to clarify.

http://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/portal/page?_pageid=33,30990&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

[Spyder]

mithis is my hero

also, AAK, is there any particular reason you capitalize "Iraq" all the time?

[ferret]

mithis is my hero

also, AAK, is there any particular reason you capitalize "Iraq" all the time?

Correct grammar? I applaud it.

[Spyder]

mithis is my hero

also, AAK, is there any particular reason you capitalize "Iraq" all the time?

Correct grammar? I applaud it.

No, i mean he says "IRAQ" instead of "Iraq"

[ferret]

Too much cable new networks? They like to do that.

[Azrael]

As for Azrael, if Saddam didnt possess any WMD's... why was a Saddam era artillery shell filled with Sarin Gas used in a roadside bomb?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-17-sarin_x.htm

Here's the relevant portion:

"Two former weapons inspectors, Hans Blix and David Kay, said the shell probably was a stray weapon scavenged by militants. It likely does not signify that Iraq still had stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, they said."

In short, there is little way of telling if it was brought back into the country by and outside force recently, if it was just one of the few that would've inevitably been missed when Saddam was forced to disarm and someone just happened to find it, or if it is part of the massive stockpile we are looking for.

I also find it very suspicious that it is found right at the same time of the ricin scare in Washington. Both of these together caused Congress to railroad Bush's BioShield plan. The idealist in me says our government wouldn't set up something like this, but more unbelievable things have been concocted in the past. Take from it what you will.

[ArchAngelKIng]

Well I wouldn't go congratulating yourselves just yet!

At first glance I was also impressed in these very positive outstanding articles of informaiton. I almost fell for this unbelievable mirage documenting these efforts.

Then I looked at the sources of this self serving government propaganda which is stating biased and predjudical views and outlandish lies .... ok.. excuse me, errors in statements of facts. The two sources are;

1. US Government itself -
Although great planning and intentions this information can not be used as facts since it is self serving information. That's why we have independant media to counter with truth of fact not government propaganda.

2. US Military Media -
Although it also has great inteintions this information is even more suspect because it is also self serving nature. See #1 for comments.

One of the documents states the following:

"Immediately after the conflict, provided 516,800 metric tons of food worth over $389 million through the World Food Program. "

Ok, the conflict isn't over in my opinion but if you believe it is you might as well believe everyting else it says too.

why do I always put IRAQ in caps. To remind me what it means.

IRAQ =
I-nsurgencies
R-esististance
A-rmy
Q-uagmire

Quoting government propaganda is like quoting the Taliban on the progress of Terrorism. The Taliban would say things are going just great! Our organization has a world dominance that is respected, feared and known to the western world that we mean business. We are currently preparing to bomb your ass in the near future but we aren't gonna tell you when, why or how. You know we can do it because we did it already!

See, quoting government propaganda sites is just plain wrong. That's why we have independant media to give truthful factual information without the brain washing bullshit (bs) our government wants us to believe.

But if you've already installed the "Bush-BS-Media" plug-in to your brains then there's no hope for you anyways. I believe the condition zero bots have more AI to know that these documents prove only 1 thing.

NOTHING!

but go ahead believe it, atleast they had the balls to put it on the web but it doesn't mean it true or balanced. Leave that to the media and your brain to determine.

Cheers,

AAK

[Spyder]

edit: nm

[ArchAngelKIng]

edit: nm

Spyder's speechless! :-)

[Spyder]

no, i just called you a hippie, but figured this wasnt the place for insults.

[Scorpion]

Hippies rule man!

[Spyder]

Oh, and i was just listening to a local radio show here the other day, and they were talking about the war. There were about 7 marines that called up the show that said they were on leave, and they have spent the last year or so in iraq. They all said they were extremely pissed off at the media over here. They said Iraq was nothing like what the media is trying to make it look like. They said the house-to-house fighting in the hotbed cities is pretty bad, but its not as intense as the news is making it look like, and that the rest of the country is doing great. The media just doesnt show you the good stuff, as we've already been over.

[Scorpion]

The media's sole job is to blow everything out of proportion and make it controversial.

Its all about ratings. They don't give a shit if they report real news or have to make it up and destroy people's lives by doing it. As long as they get their ratings they are happy. If you'll notice, stupid shit sells so the media tries to warp everything to make us look better then them. Hence why cops is so popular. American media is the cesspool of the world, we'd be better off without it.

[[NAKED] Mithis]

edit: nm

Spyder's speechless! :-)

No one is speechless. They are just dumbfounded at what you refuse to beleive. Your blant denial of the truth. You asked me to prove myself so i did. Why do you have to make everything a political conspiracy theory. Leave left and right wing politics out of this debate. Everything I posted are hardcore facts. Not one of them are lies. Several of the documents i posted are also available in Arabic if you want those. I bet you believe that 9-11 was a hoax and the government allowed 3000 plus people to be kill so that 2 years later we could attack iraq. The fact that you would say the media best way to produce truth. The media only shows what it thinks will sell. The media is 90% of the time driven by thier propective owners political views. That has been documented and proven. Just look at the NY times in the last year. When i saw your reply my 1st thought was, "My god he makes Howard Dean and Ted kennedy look conservative." Honestly that is what i thought. As a history major and a political science minor i believe in the fact that history should be told as it is. The media does not do that. I also believe the government here in the USA is for the people, by the people. I am not sure how it works in canada but i do know they will not allow fox news there. Maybe you should ask yourself why fox news has become the number one watched news in the US. Is it because we are a bunch of red necks or are they the most level no spin networks out there that can be trusted. On that note unless you take back this statement Then I looked at the sources of this self serving government propaganda which is stating biased and predjudical views and outlandish lies .... ok.. excuse me, errors in statements of facts. I have no more desire debating with you. I did what you asked but you can't do what i asked. So on that note.

Have a good day and God Bless You

Jason

[ArchAngelKIng]

Well there are the other media in the world that also gives reports on the wars of Afganistan and IRAQ, you don't always have to raed the us media. There is the AlJazeera media too. ;-)

Well Spyder when it comes to insulting me then that 's a good sign that you have nothing intelligent to offer in the discussion.

Also soldiers or other peoples direct experiences quite often are not representative of the media since the media is reporting at an overall macro level. For instance if all you did was innoculate Iraqi's from disease then you'd may say Iraqi's wil live longer because they are free of disease and healthier now, not knowing that the next day these people died in a firefight in Najaf.


Cheers,

AAK

[ferret]

Just my 2 cents for the moment, Fox News is generally considered by people who DON'T watch it to be the most right-winged conservative of the News networks. I personally watch CNN by choice, because they don't fumble over stuff like MSNBC does (God, the bloobers), and in MY opinion is the most level no spin network. There does not appear to be much politic spin at all, while a good number of anchors on Fox News also anchor republican radio talk shows.

CNN seems to tell stuff straight out, while Fox really tends to have a rightist spin to it. I'm not saying that's wrong per say, just that it isn't "most level no spin". That's all a matter opinion based on your personal views.

Beyond my personal dislike of Fox News, it also erks me that they post billboards critizing individual CNN reporters outside the CNN Center in Atlanta, which I eat at just about every day. It strikes me as poor taste to post billboards outside one of your competitor's centers of operation stating things such as "Anchorperson X, CNN needs to remove your show. Your friends at Fox News"

I can understand an ad for Fox News being there, but pretty much a direct insult? I find it irriatating.

[Spyder]

Well Spyder when it comes to insulting me then that 's a good sign that you have nothing intelligent to offer in the discussion.

well, you've pretty much proven that you dont either.

And ferret, yes, i can vouch for the fact that fox news is the most conservative news media evar. My parents watch it, and think its bias. There you go, thats all the proof you need. >:[ they are like extremely right winged pro-bush, anti-democratic and theyre so hypocritical about it it makes me sick. GAHH. They criticize the A.B.B. people because "they just dont like him because he's republican" when at the same time they hate every democrat they see for no reason other than the fact they are democrats. Bleh.

I dislike both sides, i stick to the middle and keep my own opinions.

[ArchAngelKIng]

This is a debate. Point and counter point. I have my opinion and you have yours.


Your blant denial of the truth. You asked me to prove myself so i did.

I don't think you proved anything about the state of the war only the fact that govenement website can blind you of the truth. Why don't you put some effort in obtaining the facts from independant sources that have no stake in the outcome.


Why do you have to make everything a political conspiracy theory.

I'm not making any statements about conspiracies, don't be paranoid. It's common knowledge that you don't quote govenment sources when they have political agenda and interest in the subject matter. It's what the 1st amendment protects us from. The freedom to speak the truth even when the govenement states otherwise. It's at the very core and spirit of "Freedom of Speach."


Leave left and right wing politics out of this debate. Everything I posted are hardcore facts. Not one of them are lies.

Truth...thruth..... You can't handle the truth.
ha ha ha. You did install that "Bush-BS-Media" plug-in didn't you. Off topic.


I bet you believe that 9-11 was a hoax and the government allowed 3000 plus people to be kill so that 2 years later we could attack iraq.

Get real, now your just making stuff up because you have nothing intelligent to offer the discussion. Off topic.


The fact that you would say the media best way to produce truth. The media only shows what it thinks will sell. The media is 90% of the time driven by thier propective owners political views. That has been documented and proven. Just look at the NY times in the last year.

Now who's talking about conspiracies? There maybe some relavance to your statement but that's why it's a good idea to get a sample from a wide range of media. They all can't be reporting lies? People are smart and the media is also smart enough to know if they lie to the people then their reputation, viewership, subscriptions and future are on the line. But if you think CNN, ABC, CBS, Time Magazine, BBC, Al-Jazeera, New Arab News, Washington Post, Toronto Star, ...etc are all liers then God help us all or your completely paranoid.


When i saw your reply my 1st thought was, "My god he makes Howard Dean and Ted kennedy look conservative." Honestly that is what i thought.

Not relavant to this discussion. at all.


As a history major and a political science minor i believe in the fact that history should be told as it is. The media does not do that.

History is told by the winners! As far as the truth is concerned it also belongs to the winners.


I also believe the government here in the USA is for the people, by the people. I am not sure how it works in canada but i do know they will not allow fox news there.

Actions speak louder than words and I don't put much faith in the fairy tales the goverment speaks or writes only in the actions they do. As far as I know I live in a democracy with the freedom to speak or hear what I like. I see fox news on TV everyday. I can't imagine why any news media would be barred from Canada unless they have been proven to violate media rules on court cases.


Maybe you should ask yourself why fox news has become the number one watched news in the US.

Probably because they have a good reputation which is the core of what almost all media rely upon. I have no beef iwth Fox or what they report but they are only 1 voice of many.


Is it because we are a bunch of red necks or are they the most level no spin networks out there that can be trusted.

I never said anything like that at all. again off topic and not relavant to our discussion.


On that note unless you take back this statement Then I looked at the sources of this self serving government propaganda which is stating biased and predjudical views and outlandish lies .... ok.. excuse me, errors in statements of facts.

I don't think that my comments are out of line. I think that quoting government sources in entirety as the basis of your aguement is completly out dated in todays wide range of free media access. As I already stated, it's a well known fact that government literature is biased and predjudicial and usually does not represent facts but intentions or planned activity. The reality of the situation is only provided by independant sources that are many and cross referenced to give accurate accounts of truth. Everyone knows this as common sense, now common and get real.


I have no more desire debating with you. I did what you asked but you can't do what i asked. So on that note.

Have a good day and God Bless You

This is usually a sign when the loosing party has nothing relavant or intelligent to offer and has exhaused all avenues of truth and sources of fact. Your entire tone of your post was a bit angry and emotional making statements and claims that I did not make. I thought you also brought a bit of a personal gripe to the discussion which really I have non with you or anyone else.

I said what I thought needed to be said.


God Bless you too! :-)

AAK

[kas]

we started this war by going in there for "whatever" reasons and did a horrible job at everything. i'm more so dissappointed in OUR military's behavior. Stealer

Actually we didn't start the war, Saddams radical regime did. He started a "war" against his people. We went in there to end the reign of terror by his regime, as well as the stipulation of possible WMDs. There are plenty of reasons that we could have put forth for invading Iraq, but so the WMD one hasn't been proven yet. We HELPED the people of Iraq, so many people had lost familys because of Saddam and his regime that I don't look at it as bad.

OUR militarys behavior is nothing to be disappointed about they went into Iraq putting their lives on the line to help give those residents of Iraq more freedom. War is not easy, no one ever said it would be fast to recovery ever. Every single war there have been issues about our military abusing prisoners, this one more so because of all the other issues people are seeming to have with it.

The guys we sent over there to oust Saddam did a might fine job. I am in no way ashamed of our guys at all. I don't care about the new stuff that has came out about our guys abusing prisoners or whatever maybe that's because I see the whole big picture. I see our guys getting BLOWN up by women w/ bombs strapped to them, little boys running up and exploding themselves on our soldiers.

If they need to torture a prisoner to keep our guys safe so be it. These people that are having these people blow themselves up near our soldiers are promising these people they will get stuff after they die money, items etc. The people in Iraq are for the most part are poorly educated to begin with. They were taught to hate Western Civilization. It is our goal to help them realize that there is more out there in the world to consider and learn then just to hate.

Anyways I will read more on this later. I watched the video of the guy being beheaded and I thought it was pretty sick and disgusting. Made me highly upset and all as well. Then I watched it again a few times recently why the hell you may ask? The video is very poor quality for one, and well at the end there is something that I didn't take into consideration at first...DO NOT READ BELOW IF YOU GET SICK EASY!!!!



Blood, there was not enough of it after they chopped his head off. The fact that he was beheaded so slowly there should have been blood spurting all over the place there wasn't. When the guy lifted his head up there was hardly any blood dripping down either. It's just odd and I can't really explain why there wasn't a lot of blood, course it could be because of the bad video quality? I dunno just confuses me. I have seen a lot of gory stuff in my life being a fire fighter and at one point an EMT so I know what is suppose to happen / semi-what it looks like.

[Spyder]

AAK, if you're going to argue like that then i wouldnt trust any news source. Any news source that would actually have information about the war in iraq would have an interest in the outcome. In fact, i think EVERYONE has an interest in the outcome. And considering the fact that the US is over there would make them pretty credible. US gov websites arent even news sites, they dont care about ratings, they just provide facts. In fact, i doubt the people who run the USAID site are even closely related to current administration. Theyre most likely the same people who ran it under the clinton administration, and before that. The head of the department might have changed, but if he was forcing the employees to submit false information to the website you know damn well that the employees would speak out.

[ferret]

... they dont care about ratings, they just provide facts ...

No, but they do care about poll numbers. It wouldn't do for the military to look bad, or the administration. The military gains funding because there's a war, so there's motive there that the information they provide might be a bit biased in their favor.

This information is coming out of the government. They aren't going to lie out right, but there's plenty of ways to bend the truth without showing the whole picture or making it look favorable for yourself.

[Spyder]

Good point, but all i'm saying is that its not pumping out complete lies like AAK thinks it is. It wouldnt lie about the fact that Iraq is rebuilding if in fact its falling to peices.

[ArchAngelKIng]

AAK, if you're going to argue like that then i wouldnt trust any news source. Any news source that would actually have information about the war in iraq would have an interest in the outcome.
.
really? what interest does FOX, CNN, ABC, Al-Jazeera or any news media have in the outcome of the war? What about Canadian media, what interest do they have? France news media? UK? I don't see they have a stake in the outcome of the war.


This information is coming out of the government. They aren't going to lie out right, but there's plenty of ways to bend the truth without showing the whole picture or making it look favorable for yourself.

Agreed bending of the truth. Ya like when the information they give is contrary to reality then the information is stated as "Planned Activities." like when 20/20 approaches them and says no you didn't do what you said, then the government official says well it should have been done, we plan to do it. etc... etc...

[ArchAngelKIng]

Did you know the Taleban has reorganized in Afganistan? Did you know their attacks in Afganistan has increased?

LOL that's funny. They have? Where? really show me. In a nation the size of Afganistan, where do they hide their reorganized army?


Well I don't find this funny. Afghanistan is still not secured and IRAQ is a mess. But here's more about the power of the Taliban which I wouldn't say they are all but in our past.

Taliban Strikes Again:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9603769%255E1702,00.html

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040521/ap_on_re_as/afghan_fighting_1

Al-jazeera
http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=1706

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aE34J77GrWdU&refer=top_world_news

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/90-05212004-304079.html

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_6989.shtml

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/05/10/2003154875
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2004/May/subcontinent_May517.xml&section=subcontinent

[Spyder]

Actually he is correct that they are "reorganizing" in afgan, but they arent doing much. Not to mention that Osama cant show his head very easily with us over there.

[ArchAngelKIng]

Actually he is correct that they are "reorganizing" in afgan, but they arent doing much. Not to mention that Osama cant show his head very easily with us over there.

well if they were smart and they are not they'd wait it out a few more years. I sure hope Osama is captured. It would do much in the psychological war at least!

[Spyder]

heh, if they were smart they wouldnt be poking the sleeping (well, now rudely awoken) bear with a stick.

[ArchAngelKIng]

heh, if they were smart they wouldnt be poking the sleeping (well, now rudely awoken) bear with a stick.

That's wierd that you would say that becuase I read some prophecy that refers to the USA as the sleeping giant being awaken by objects falling from the sky. But who knew?

[Spyder]

bwahaha... those are so lame. So many people made so many vague statements throughout history that everything that ever happens could be referenced to at least one of them. it means nothing.

[Scorpion]

Nostradamus, nuff said.

[ferret]

heh, if they were smart they wouldnt be poking the sleeping (well, now rudely awoken) bear with a stick.

That's wierd that you would say that becuase I read some prophecy that refers to the USA as the sleeping giant being awaken by objects falling from the sky. But who knew?

That was said about Pearl Harbor, actually. One of the Japanese admirals said after the attack, "I fear we have done nothing but awaken the sleeping giant."

[Spyder]

heh, if they were smart they wouldnt be poking the sleeping (well, now rudely awoken) bear with a stick.

That's wierd that you would say that becuase I read some prophecy that refers to the USA as the sleeping giant being awaken by objects falling from the sky. But who knew?

That was said about Pearl Harbor, actually. One of the Japanese admirals said after the attack, "I fear we have done nothing but awaken the sleeping giant."

well, yeah, there was that. it was Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, and the complete quote was "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." However, the first reference to that quote was in Tora! Tora! Tora!, and no one has ever been able to prove that he did actually say it or whether it was just the movie producers adding some darma to the movie.

It's a cool quote tho, so lets pretend its legit ;)

[Azrael]

Just my 2 cents for the moment, Fox News is generally considered by people who DON'T watch it to be the most right-winged conservative of the News networks. I personally watch CNN by choice, because they don't fumble over stuff like MSNBC does (God, the bloobers), and in MY opinion is the most level no spin network. There does not appear to be much politic spin at all, while a good number of anchors on Fox News also anchor republican radio talk shows.

I watch a little bit of everything. I tend to stay away from MSNBC, but watch CNN and FOX both. I usually flip back and forth. I would say that CNN puts very little spin on their news, and FOXNews also puts little spin on it, only the spin that is there is in the other direction. The problem with FOX is that they have so many commentating/opinion shows among their hardcore news, and many of those commentators are extremely rightist (Sean Hannity comes to mind. He's a nutball). I do watch O'Reilly quite often, though. Love that guy. If you think he is extreme right like most people who haven't seen him at all, watch him for a week. He is a little rude at times (it fits the format of the show, though. Guests know what they are getting into), but one of the most fair opinionists on television right now.

[ArchAngelKIng]

ya I watch a little bit of everything too and after doing so I'm always pleased with how CNN covers the depth of the story and how they bring on political guests rather than being political themselves. Wolf Blitzer is probably my favorite interviewer other than Larry King.

AAK