Christianity, True and Divine? [FCS] [Princess]

[ferret]

This debate is a continuation of a debate from FCS. The original thread is located here:

http://www.frankensteincs.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3213

The original thread post:
I have been pondering a question and since many of you are Christian-based, perhaps you can shed light on the situation. How can I be sure that the Christian religion is true and divine? I already believe that Christ was the Son of God and that Christianity is divine in origin, but that came to me through the word of Muhammad, and since some Christians regard him as an imposter, then in that case his word loses its authority altogether and none of his utterances can be trusted to contain truth. From a Christian's perspective, I would like to hear a reply.

[nOOB]

I am religus person. I dont push my beleif onto others as some of my follow Christianity /catholic followers do. But Personally I think that religon is more about finding God in you life then following any one path. A quote learned from my father and i dont have a clue where he got it.

"It is the same God just a different phone booth."

I think this is true. What differences does it make if you are catholic or jewish or whatever? Is long as you are trying to find God.

Just a random fact, if you look at all the branches of Christianity and Jews and Muslims the core beleif systems are almost the same. They just have dfferent ways of following towards those beleifs. I would spend the next hour writting a paper on it but it is more fun to do research your self. =D

nOOB

[Princess]

Hehe, thanks for the start ferret, but since I was really leading the question for a certain response, I'd like to add what my main point was.

That's the thing about religion. No one can sit down and through mathematic formulas prove that one religion is the true religion. It simply cannot be proven. That is where faith comes in.

Main Entry: faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
(2b) firm belief in something for which there is no proof

Things that can be proven are things in history. Jesus Christ did walk the earth. The flood did happen. But to prove that Jesus Christ was sent by God. Or to prove that God was the one who caused the worldwide flood... well it just can't be done.

But the thing about Christianity is that, everything is the Bible may not be able to be proved as true, but none can be proved as untrue. So by overwhelming facts that point to the fact that it is all true leads to the conclusion that it is all true. Including the fact that Jesus is the son of God, that there is only one true God, and that Jesus Christ is the only true was to obtain salvation.


I guess what I'm getting at, is that a lot of what brings people faith in the Bible is its miracles. Like you said, none of it can be proven as "untrue," but then again, according to the Bible, there were many Jews who did not believe in the miracles that were performed. Curing the leper, raising the dead, healing the sick, etc., are all miracles performed in the Bible. When I think of "faith" in Christianity, I think of people believing that Jesus could do these things therefore he must have been the Son of God. Miracles are just not rational proof, as you all appear to agree. If they were, Zoraster and Muhammad (who have been attributed with many miracles according to their witnesses) would not be considered false prophets. The Jews categorically deny all the miracles ascribed to Christ, as Christians deny the miracles of Muslims. A popular response? That Jews are the antagonists of Christians and that they would not likely utter words of praise of Christ. But then, Muslims argue the same way. That their Prophet has been highly distorted.

Now, if an earnest seeker sincerely wishes to comprehend the reality of Christ's mission, do you think these miracles will lead to the truth? They are perceived as the greatest proof of His mission. But can anyone regard miracles as conclusive proof without any visual evidence? No. How is it then that in the case of miracles attributed to Christ there is no need for evidence, whereas in the case of Muhammad's it should be substantiated by visual evidence? Because Muhammad, Zoroaster, The Bab, and Baha'u'llah are all regarded as one of the false prophets and the so-called supernatural acts of theirs are mere fabrications. How is it that all the creeds other than Christianity will have to substantiate their assertions by evidence while it is maintained that the words written in the Bible ought to be accepted arbitrarily as conclusive proof?

What is conclusive proof? I believe that proof of Prophethood must be something so convincing, so overwhelming, that no one in the whole world could deny or be able to question its validity. I do not mean to say what that proof is. I simply wanted to point out the essential quality of such a proof. It is already known that the Jews, Buddhists and Zoroastrians ascribe to their respective prophets. Therefore miracles ought to be dismissed altogether as conclusive proof, because they fall short of the essential quality such proofs must possess. Is there anything that one could call conclusive? Well, I'm going to take SM's concept. I think no one in the whole world would deny the fact that over 2000 years ago there lived a man named Jesus who rose up and declared Himself as one who embodied the Spirit of God. Even those who disbelieve in Him admit that He did claim to have been invested with such a mission, though they might say His declaration was a false one. Is there anyone who could say there is no Christian in the world, that those many millions who bear allegiance to Christianity do not owe their faith primarily to the Word of Christ or that Christ influenced his adherents through acquired knowledge or through material wealth or power? Can you or I or any other human being on this planet, guided by his own impulse, stand up today, say the same thing that Christ said and succeed in establishing a new religion without any material means?

[Princess]

And then my second post is also crucial to understand the first:

The question of miracles is one of the most misunderstood subjects concerning the Prophets and Messengers of God, in my opinion. The followers of most religions attribute miracles to their prophets. The belief in miracles comes from the study of the Holy Books of old religions and through traditions handed down from generation to generation. Religious leaders have attempted to emphasize miracles as one of the most important proofs of the authenticity of their faiths. Consequently the followers of a religion regard their own Prophet as one who had a halo of light around his head and carried out supernatural acts to convince people of His station.

The study of the life and teachings of the Prophets and their Holy Books shows that the opposite is true. The Messengers of God have not established miracles as a testimony to their truth. They are the bearers of the Message of God and their mission is to educate the souls of men. Their word is creative and may be regarded as the greatest instrument for the vivification and regeneration of humanity. My view concerning miracles is that the Messengers of God derive their power and authority from Almighty God. They are the embodiments of His attributes and the manifestations of His glory in this world. They are therefore able to do what they will, even to change the laws of nature and perform miracles. For it is obvious that God, having established the laws of nature, is Himself able to change them if He so wishes.

However, such miracles, even when they have been performed, are valid as proof only for the few who have witnessed them. They cannot be regarded as a conclusive testimony to the authenticity of the message of the Prophet. For no one can prove that a certain miracle attributed to a Prophet has actually been performed. On the other hand, some of the miracles mentioned in the Holy Books such as the raising of the dead, the curing of lepers, or the ascending to heaven could very well have spiritual significance through deepening on such Writings.

There is a great difference between fact and belief. There are things in this life whose existence is proved and no one has ever denied them. For example, the existence of the sea on this planet is a proven fact and no person, including those who have never seen the sea, has ever denied its existence. But having a belief in something with which a number of people may disagree is a different matter. Such a belief may not be used as factual evidence for the simple reason that its authenticity is challenged, even though the belief in itself may be true. Miracles are examples of this. For instance, the followers of Christ believe that He performed many miracles. But since many people have denied the claim, one cannot consider these miracles as a factual reality, although they may well have been performed.

In my opinion, the greatest miracle of the Messenger of God is that He changes the hearts of people and creates a new civilization merely through the influence of His word. Every word that He utters is creative and endowed with such potency that all the powers of the world will not be able to resist the world-vivifying forces that are released through it. Like the animating energies of the spring season which are let loose in abundance and penetrate to the core of all living things, the creative Word of the Messenger of God revolutionizes human society and by its resistless force breaks down man-made barriers of opposition, creating a new race of men and a new civilization.

[ArchAngelKIng]

After reading nOOb and Princesses very long and substantal arguement about about "Faith", "Miricles" and "Proof". It inspired me to reply.

I am a Christian which means; I am not perfect and God made me in his image and in his perfection I am. I struggle to be good, wise, smart and acceptable to God. Deeds alone are not enough this is what we learn from the Old Testament of the Bible. We should follow the rules all the time but we don't. because we are weak and eventually give in to temptation. We all have weaknesses that can be exploited, candy, food, drugs, sex, smoking, alcohol...ect. If the rules were enough for God then the New Testement would not exist. It is our failure to follow the rules that God changed his approach for our benefit.

Christianity is about the struggle to follow Jesus in our daily life. To incorporate his teachings and values into our every day activities, in the way we relate to our neighbours to the way we treat the poor. Jesus became the living example for us to follow.

The New Testiment teaches us that the Old Testament is still valid and Jesus did not invalidate it. It also teaches us to be merciful, compassionate and understanding towards our fellow humans. Jesus came to earth, as God the embodied man. To live and experience life as we experience it ourselves so that God could relate to us directly. Jesus the embodied man of God, teaches us many values about how we are to live with each other, help each other, and love each other. Yes, he does lots of miricles but they all have contexts about lifes compassions not about power. He is not trying to convince us of his power. Jesus does all these miricles to show compassion and love for us. Basiclly he is deeply emotionally connected to us because that's what happens when you live in a community, you become connected. Seeing the suffering of people around him made him saddened and distressed to the point that he can't help himself but heal the sick. Jesus does all these miricles begrudgingly because he knew people would misunderstand his message to the world at large.

Jesus dies for our sins, for our weaknesses of breaking the rules we should follow but don't. He suffers the most any human could ever suffer in his death. He did this for our benefit for our salvation. To gain this salvation you must repent of your sins, try to be the best person you can be and God knows your heart so there's not fool'n anyone here right?, and you must have Faith in Jesus to bring the salvation to you at the time of your death. Faith... this is what Christianity is all about.


I hope that this better improves your understanding of Christanity.


Now go with peace in your heart and Jesus in your life!


ArchAngelKing.