School or work

[Bryant]

Ok, i'm not sure if i'll regret posting this...

But basically, i'm starting to get really sick of school. I don't know if i need a vacation, or to end it all and get a job.

The problem is, i have no idea what the long term effects of getting a job pre-graduate study has...

Is there anyone out there who got only a BS/BA before going to work work that can help me out?

[SavaThePriest]

Where are you in your education? First year, second, third, 4th, bachelors, more?

What field?

How successful are you, and do you like the stuff youre learning?

I would say just a vacation is what you need right now. Its probably the stress getting to you (its getting to me too, last year of highschool and i want to go into engineering, so marks > *) You likely just had/are going through midterms right now, so its likely just stress.

If you can't go on vacation, just try and get out more, live a little. The thing about university is that in the same course, a graduate with a 90 average gets the same piece of paper as a graduate with a 70 average, no? Just do what you can manage, and avoid continuous stress.

[darien]

Tough call.

Karl Rove, the man with all the answers in the George Bush campaign, is a college dropout. Yet here he is, helping to run the United States of America.

Bill Gates didn't finish college. Neither did Steve Jobs. Yet Gates tours college campuses practically begging students to get into the computer science curriculum, since its attendance is constantly dwindling. ( http://news.com.com/2008-7345_3-5167499.html )

Without knowing what area of study you are focusing on, I can only provide these few examples of people who saw business opportunities in new technology (and had a natural disposition toward them) who left school in pursuit of business, and succeeded tremendously.

There are, of course, similar stories of people in every profession who have done the same.

[Bryant]

Ok so here's my info:

This is the first semester of my last year. I graduate next May.

I'll be getting a major in physics and minor in chem from University of Illinois UC

That last question... "how successful are you" depends on what you're looking at.

Sava, good grades as an undergrad always help no matter what you do afterwards. If you're applying to graduate schools, good grades are important (but not necessarily the most important). If you're looking for a job, keep above a 3.0 and your resume won't be instantly tossed.

So here's the dilemma... it's not just that i'm sick of this stuff, it's that i have to make some important decisions very soon. If i go off to work, how much upward mobility do I have with just a BS? I'll most likely have to go back to school and get a graduate degree (masters or PHD) to advance much further. Good thing about this track (BS - job - PHD - job) is that you're guaranteed to have work after the graduate degree.

The other track is to go BS - PHD - job/academia. In this case, you're not guaranteed a job after the PHD in this economy, and academia is just not an appealing life to me.

I'm willing to bet that some of you have followed the first track, or somethign similar. You get a job first, and then have that job pay for your higher education. Being in physics, the everyone has informed me about the second track, but I know nothing about the first.

[Doc Wattson]

Only 25% of America has a college degee. After may you'll be in the top quarter of the work force. I have no clue what % of american's have graduate degrees but it has to be less then 10%. You make it sound like if you don't do post grad studies that you are a failure and will never get a job.

As you pointed out, you can always go back. I am a big beleiver that degrees are over rated. Most people don't go into the field that they study and most people really don't "learn" anything, rather they memorize info that forget soon after.

Physic is different then film but I'll use myself as an example. I was a comp sci major, even skipped my freshman year with the option of taking a summer course to skip and sophmore year (I scored a 5 on both my AP and AB). I dropped out after one year and soon after went into a career in film. I am now 27 and doing rather well. I'll guess less then one in twenty five film grads I meet survive in this industry, they are pure canon foder. One guy I work with has a degree from Columbia in Geology. The point, which I am not getting to very well, is that hands of exp can be far more importent then a degree. Not only can you learn things on teh job but more importently you learn if teh job is right for you. Nothing would suck more then spending 10 years in school to find out you don't like the field of work you are going into.

As Darien pointed out many ultra succesful people don't have college degrees. You probably would be surprised at the number of CEOs on Wall Street that don't have college degrees. A close friend of my father is the head of Bear Stern's chicago commodity's exchange. He not only doesn't have a degree but he won't hire interns if they have a degree.

Not knowning you in the least I'd recomend you spend some time working in your field. You can always go back and can do so refreshed and with better understanding of what lies ahead.

-Gary-

[Uthor]

I am working with a BS in Mechanical Engineering and so is a friend of mine. Neither one of us went to grad school cause we didn't want to. By the end of my Junior year, I was sick of school all together. I have two other friends that grduated with me and went on to get their Master's. One is now sick of school (after finishing his Master's) and is getting a job, the other will most likely get his PhD and then stay on as a Prof or doing research.

All our descisions were based on how much we liked school and wanted to continue with it. The best advice I've heard was not to go to Grad school unless you want to go to Grad school. I personally couldn't deal with working on a thesis and spending 60+ hours a week running experiments, then doing school work on top of that.

As for money and moving up and such, I know where I work, you get paid more with a higher degree (and the job doesn't pay as much as other places would, but it has the benefits of being a small place with a relaxed atmosphere in Peoria (much cheaper to live in than Chicago)). The guys that handle the projects (most people work under them, though they are not the bosses, they just organize the project and distribute the work and handle the customer) are not decided on by degree. There're people with Masters, BS, and two-year associate degrees handling the projects, all based on how well they do their job.

If you are sick of school, but want to get a higher degree, then look for a job and get a Master's/PHd part time while working. Or go travel Europe for a year. Just get away from achedemia and get used to a life with out school (you've been in school non-stop for at least 16 years by now). If/When you go back, you'll have a new appreciation for school, or you wil realize how much it sucks and not go back again.

I feel I have to represent and say "Yay, UIUC!"

[shawmutt]

If i go off to work, how much upward mobility do I have with just a BS?

A BS will most likely get you a boring, tedious job that will most likely make you wonder why you went to school in the first place. The place I work (biotech company) is full of them.

Stick it out, it's better to get school done now while you can instead of later when so many other things are there to distract you.

[Canon]

Karl Rove, the man with all the answers in the George Bush campaign, is a college dropout. Yet here he is, helping to run the United States of America.

I reserve the right to bring this up in the debate forum.

In answer to your question, though... it's always important to have that piee of paper. Get it. Even if it's only as part time while you work... keep going to school.

[Kamie]

I agree with Cannon.

Going part time and working may be what you need. A lot of employeers perfer experience, but a lot of college grads do not have experience and wind up in a vicious cycle of need work but not having experience and having a job hunt that lasts for months to a year.

If you could get an internship or co-op, it may help you beat the monotony, gain some experience, and help get you out of your rut.

Ferret and I work and go to school part time. We have a different situation than you do, but if you need a break, you need a break. Just do it wisely :)

[Bryant]

I appreciate all these suggestions

However, being this late into my undergrad days, I've already committed to plan. Right now, I just need some reassurances.

Basically, I'm applying to a lot of schools (mostly out in california, because i'm sick of the midwest). If my first year or two in warm weather, with new people, and at a new school are still too much for me, then i'll be getting out of academia for a long time. Otherwise, I might just endure the next 6 years.

[SavaThePriest]

another 6? you planning on PhD? Bravo.

[Bryant]

So, the great thing about physics is that all the professors push all the students to pursue a career in academia. ... meaning, we have to get a PHD, we have to do a postdoc, then get a job at a national lab/university .. and research the rest of our lives..

yeah, great thing about physics ...

anyway, a masters in physics means nothing. It's only worth is as a means of getting into a better PHD program.

and i have the strange suspicion that grad school is easier than undergrad.

[Uthor]

If you don't want to do research (which is what I'm assuming a career in Physics would entail), why not switch over to one of the Engineering schools? You'd prob waste a year taking basic thermo/dynamics/etc classes (they are taught diffrently from the physics point-of-view), then you'd get a Master's in little time.

I'd say Grad school is easier then undergrad as long as you don't mind working long hours (from what I've heard). The work itself isn't that hard (work on one project continuosly, then take one, maybe two, classes a semester).

[ferret]

Just try not to get locked into the same position I have become. I have 4 semesters left at "full-time" (12 course hours a semester). But, since I go to school half time, it'll take 8 semesters. I cannot afford not to work though, and though my pay isn't particularily high, the benefits of staying with my company are enormous.

If I was gaurenteed that I could get my job back after graduation, and had the money to do so, I'd quit for now, finish my degree, then go back. My salary would double (or more, including benefits) after the degree.

Seeing as that's not going to happen, I'm stuck in a co-op position for the time being until my director can either get me re-hired as a contractor (Which makes most of HR's hiring rules void), or can get HR to bend the rules enough to allow me in as a non-agreement employee without my degree.

Maybe you should take a semester off to just.. "cool down" ... But do not take longer than that, it'll just be harder and harder to go back. Get your degree, take some time off, then find a job for a while. Earn some capital and then start looking at whether or not earning that masters really matters to you.

Personally, if I was making 50K/year I'd be happy, never touch school again, and live my life out just fine. Would 100K/year be nice? Yeah. But 50K/year would do just fine. I currently live on less than 30K/year and do so happily with everything I really need or want.

[[gh]Spurty]

Well, I can't speak for the Physic's field, I know nothing about it, but I can tell you that having worked in the IT industry for 8 years, that taking a post graduate degree is how to automagically change your job from Software Developer (Junior/Senior) to Manager of Software Development. If you walk in with that qualification but no actual experience, you are going to find it a bit harder than most to get promoted from a developer into management (You'd have to take some form of education with a management biased in it which is even MORE school).

Not all companies bother looking at your peices of paper anyway. My last company was run by a guy who was thrown out of University and to that end, he didn't rate people on their academic skills, just their aptitude (which is why I got in without even a degree, but they helped pay for it).

Something like that also happens in the Banking World (I've helped one Girl Friend get her MBA while she worked in a bank and she was promoted so fast that people who had worked there for 20 years got all pissy)

If you are going into academia, you are right screwed anyway. There are legally none or very very few teachers in the US who have taught for 5 or more years without post graduate degrees. Its mandatory and reviewed every 5 years.

The trick is taking courses while you are on the job or getting deals to get someone else to pay for the courses.

Having seen the above in action, the one question I'd be asking myself would be:

- Why am I considering extra education when I can deffinately get a job with a degree (yes, it will be at a lower level) and use company paid extra education later on for promotions (up to wherever I want to be rather than where there is an opening at the time I apply)?

My wife is a teacher and so are all her friends. I'd recommend against it unless poverty is your goal in life, or you are planning on marrying a rich lady :)

Ah, I lucked out a LOT becuase I didn't go back to school to get my education till I was 25.

Another peice of information is that I also accepted jobs for a lot lower than you or many of my friends would, but thats cause I knew of the payoff at the end was for real :) Your first 3 years at work are all education anyway, regardless of your qualifications.

Last word of warning, I've worked with and heard stories of 'primadonnas' (spelling?) who have lots of qualifications who landed flat on their faces as they never made the transistion from Academia to Business World and had to go into teaching anyway as Business's carried very different views on how products should be developed.

I'm aware, this isn't anywhere like where you are heading (Software Development) but I'm sure there is a product and there is a Business heart beating at at the core.

Good luck and don't be upset with whatever choice you make. Both have pro's and con's

[Dissman]

Karl Rove...

I reserve the right to bring this up in the debate forum

I reserve the right to taunt you mercilessly Canon.

You said that you are guarenteed a job with a graduate degree... with a BS you are not... i'd get the degree and make sure you take it very easy this summer... I know you are burnt out and i know that feeling, but you will probably have to go back if you quit, so you might as well stay in and get the little piece of paper... plus, you have the opportunity to hit on all the little college thangs.

[Bryant]

... plus, you have the opportunity to hit on all the little college thangs.

This is part of the reason why i want to go to California :-D

Aye... i had a big post written out, and then the internet didn't send it. I clicked back, and it was gone.

Basically, it amounts to this:

Spurty, I'm thinking about doing an enginering degree in biomedical engineering or biomedical optics over at UC irvine. My current undergrad research prof is moving his whole lab there, so i have an instant acceptance hopefully... It's a unique path for most physics majors, but probably the most profitable one there is :-P

Anyway, from what most of you have said, it looks like i might as well tough it out and get it done now.

[Scurvey Dog]

my wife and I are both college dropouts. were not rich by any means but but we work hard and have both gotten jobs in our fields that technicaly require some kinda degree. like i said we arent rich but we are both 21 years of age, own our own home and have 'most' of the toys we desire. bottom line is degrees ARE NOT necissary. we are happy

[blue]

i woudl agree they arent necessary, but the likelyhood is they will make things easier in the short run.

i am also a drop out. w00t. 3 otua my 5 years and i felt that the crap they were teaching the architecture students was useless. since then i have gone off to be a cadd manager and now a cad designer in an architetural firm. although i cant be an architect unless i go back and get my degree, i still believe the stuff they taught was crap.

never in my "Real life" expierience have i needed to know:
How a bug relates to a building
How to compare philosophy and a song and incorporate it into a building.
how to design a building using form over function. (fact is you make it work for the function and for the client! unless your HNTB doing a museam of art or somethign whack).

anyway. whole school was about philosophy. i am not.
so long story short i gave it up for cash :)

[Bryant]

Scurvey, do you and your wife plan on starting a family?

The impression i get from Ferret is that an additional degree might help quite a bit, especially if you plan on starting a family.

[Princess]

As an undergraduate psychology major with 2 semesters left, I've decided to graduate early. I'm going to still apply for graduate schools for the fall, but I'll be spending the 6 months inbetween working at a hospital as a mental health technician. When you work at a hospital, they pay your college tuition for you as well as give you real-life work experience so you can make the decision whether to stay working or go to school. I'm also in school for the long haul of the PhD, so I know how you feel =/. I'm sick of school because it's the only thing I've ever known in life, but that's part of the reason I think it's important to keep going. If you take a break, it may be more difficult to get back into it. I figure, if you have made it this far, you may as well keep going (if you know what you want from life). I don't know if as a physics major you have the same type of option, but if you do, I would consider it. Best of both worlds.

Good luck in whatever choice you make.

[Bryant]

ok you know what... grad school or not, i'm sick of it all

this semester is teaching me that i've screwed up the past 3 years at this school and need to rethink my future.

there are certain unspoken signs in this field that tell you you're in the wrong field. I think i've just received two of them at once.

So right now, my graduate school prospects have dwindled down to nothing

you know what... just **** it all ... i'm sick of this place, i'm sick of this school, i'm sick of the department. .. i thought graduate school somewhere else would make me change my mind .. but now i realize that graduate school, to me, was just a way of avoiding real life, which is seemingly far scarier ..

next semester i'm just going to play WOW and take blowoff classes. Maybe i can rekindle my interest in learning..

[Uthor]

Bryant,
Yeah, I know how you feel. If I hadn't had only one year left for my B.S., I would have quit school myself and gone on to something in construction (instead of sitting on my ass on a computer all day like I do now).
If you're at UIUC, does Mike and Molly's still have dollar pints on Tuesdays? Man, that place was great to hang out in, espessially the one time they had a DJ in who played nothing but mid-90's pop-punk. Cowboy Monkey on Tuesdays also rocked ($1 pints of Pabst and a "rock DJ" that plays New Order :supz: ). The Highdive used to be the place to go until they got a DJ in who played really loud techno when there were only 5 people in the bar, none of which liked techno.

[Bryant]

I can't say i've been into the bar scene. I've never heard of Mike and Molly's here though, nor Cowboy Monkey.

Maybe they got bought out?

There is a bar "Murphy's" that has a dollar pint day ... not sure if it's tuesday .. but it's only for one specific brand beer. I would go more often if i knew people that would want to go ...

[ferret]

Scurvey, do you and your wife plan on starting a family?

The impression i get from Ferret is that an additional degree might help quite a bit, especially if you plan on starting a family.

Hah, you might have misunderstood me. Not an "additional" degree :P having just the first one would help :P

[Uthor]

Bryant, all three are in downtown Champaign, I know Cowboy Monkey is still open, and I'll have to assume Mike and Molly's is (I've been there earlier this year). Mike and Molly's is in the back of an alley near the bus/train station, so not a lot of people stumble upon it.

If you want something closer to campus, I do believe Brother's (accross from Murph's) has $1.5 or $2 or $2.50 beers (sorry, I don't like Brother's all that much, they're cheap whatever the price is), anything on tap, including Bass and Guiness and all, on Tuesdays. The catch is that they won't change the keg if it runs out, even if it runs out late Monday, so they might be out of Guiness or some other expensive beers.

[Bryant]

Haha, sorry about that Ferret.

I think i've turned this thread into a "this is bryant's rant about his personal problems, let's see if it applies to anyone else" thread

Thinking about this whole situation last night made me realize one thing. 1) I need to get out of physics. It's not the midwest, it's not the workload. I still enjoy learning physics and all the material, but i've grown to loathe doing physics. It's become too much about mathematical framework/formalism.

[Tech]

working = money now, but no dependancy in the future for holding a nice job.
school = hard work now, but in the future bryant, you will see that in a workplace, you will have those people who are like im so much better than you cuz i have my masters, and you just want to shit in their coffee, that is why im working on my masters soon, and about to finish my bachlors, so i will never have to deal with that shit.