Online instant messaging .. are you talking freely ?

[[gh]Spurty]

Thought just occured to me ... are you aware of how AIM works and does anyone know if MS have teams of people reading your IMs ?

I believe they don't, but they record it somewhere for when they are called on to supply this data as evidence. IRC on the otherhand is logged by everyone on the channel (I guess conservatively, only 60% bother to turn logging on)

The debate is as follows (and it requires you to project yourselves as parents. If you can't do that, let us know as a kid, how you feel about it):

When your kids are online, what would you prefer them to use and why?

- Instant messaging (which is largely un-moderated and un-monitored by anyone outside the client-server-client setup)
- Irc (which can be moderated and monitored by yourself to a degree, which is a lot more than IM)

I guess, as I move towards becoming a father, my point of view is drifting towards the protective mechanisms avialable in IRC, however I am not that far gone to note that it is effectively 'spying' on my kids (Which I guess is a big part of parenthood anyway "Where are you going?" and "Who are you going to be with?" are spying).

What I want to know, by understanding how and why people are using IM over IRC and IRC over IM is whether is a determined attempt to keep some things secret. Also, I know this is about 14 years away for me, but how would you go about protecting your kids online from perverts and abuse from other kids? Keeping them away from computers is not an option 14 years from now.

Thanks

:wink:

[ferret]

BABY SPURTY

Some IM programs do keep logs (ICQ has an extensive history system that I loved before they turned off the 2000a version :( I hate them newer one so haven't upgraded yet)... My biggest peeve has always been that AIM and MSN don't have automated logging or history.

Personally, I'm not overly concerned. This is akin to wondering what someone else has been saying on the phone without you knowing. You can't track everything.

As for your final question:

I use both. IRC for chat-room style converstation, and AIM/ICQ for communication with individuals that may not use IRC (Or use my networks). IRC is more for the "computer savvy" ... Plus, a lot of people prefer IMs because there is no "window" per say.. You can minimize it to your systray or just have a small "buddy list" window. Its modular, compared to say mIRC which is a full program window.

[Canon]

Trillian logs too.

[blue]

trillian will log all IRC / ICQ / AOL / YAHOO anything it connects to as well... its the bomb.

[kud0z]

Get DeadAim for regular aim.

What you have to ask yourself is how many children are actually on IRC? How many children channels on there? If there's #fluffykittens, you can bet money that a 40 year old Evil Ernie created it to trick 16 year old girls to marry him.

I'd definately want my kids (A good 15 years away. Old farts. :D) to talk on AIM, as opposed to IRC.

[squeak]

AIM for a kid has a much higher eas-of-use then IRC.

[blue]

laugh canon beat me by 1/2 second or soemthing lol

[acme420]

why the **** would i want anyone logging my ****in msn chats? im not a ****in baby and i certainly dont need third parties listening in on my private convos.

[Uthor]

I use AIM cause everyone I know uses AIM. No like or dislike other than that. If I had reason for another program, I would use it.

As for parenting, well, I'm no where near to being a father and worrying about this sort of stuff. I will, however, say, that by the time my child is 13/14/15, and hopfully sooner, I hope I would have taught him/her enough "common knowledge" (whatever that means) to be able to use the internet, and all that entails (IMing, e-mail, surfing, etc) without my supervision. That my child will be able to protrect him/herself from predators and scam artists and such. If, however, I do not feel my child is knowledgeable, mature, or able enough to handle him/herself, I will have to just supervise everything until I am sure that they are.

[Canon]

why the **** would i want anyone logging my ****in msn chats? im not a ****in baby and i certainly dont need third parties listening in on my private convos.

Omg, you fkn braindead burnout... This is about your kids(if you have kids).

if(you_have_kids == true)
{
offer sentiments on which IM client is best in regards to logging conversations and whatnot towards keeping your kids safe online;
}else{
stfu;
}


<3 G[N]D

[stormFury]

I'm sure some better way of communicating will have been developed in 13-14 years time anyway. I wouldnt worry about it too much right now...

[ferret]

BABY SPURTY!

[Princess]

I use DeadAim also. It logs everything automatically while still allowing me to talk with the majority of my friends who use AIM. But AIM has always had the option to save a conversation if you want to, I think. Either way, I'm not sure why it's so important to have everything logged for the purpose of children. Kids today are way more computer savvy than adults are and as long as they're told the do's and don't's I can't imagine there being much of a problem. I only keep logs for my personal records, or if I don't have time to look at a message, or if I need to trap someone in a lie, that sort of thing.

When I was growing up, we got AOL when I was about 12-13. Those were the days when it was fun to go into chat rooms and say whatever you feel like. Sure, there were people talking about sex, swearing, or being weird, but you always knew that they couldn't get you if you didn't write any information about yourself. That is the joy of the internet. Besides, if someone is harassing you, you're probably not going to tell them where you live. In addition, my parents told me never to put out my full name or where I'm from on the internet. They were really serious about it and just taking the time to talk to me made the difference. Kids respect their parents a lot more than we think (if there is a good relationship there). Anyways, I say let them chose what they want, but be firm about letting any information about them out.

[steaLer]

i sometime share the same concern as spurty and many other "to-be-parents". how obsolete will i be when my kids come around?

[Dissman]

Well, as long as you keep up with technology you should be pretty good... sure the kids might be a bit savvier than you, but a little trust goes a long way... dont feel the need to watch their every move, or they'll find some way to get around you.

[[gh]Spurty]

I'm not interested in the 'ease of use' part or the 'reading every word'. Far too time consuming and I have my own online life to live :)

I guess practically, I'd be scanning the logs for talk about money, drugs and illegal things like them being solicited for sex by evil ernie. I can work out what is BS and what is an issue I need to monitor closer. I'm not interested in spying on the rest. The rest I'll just ask about, it'll be quicker. I'll also make sure they are fully aware that from time to time I'll be checking up on them. I don't want them to think I don't trust them.

I suppose if I learn the kid(s) right in the first place, they will be street smart enough to not give out any info about themselves.

Well, I know I'll be keeping tabs on technology (my job madates I keep pace), so there will be no mechanisms in place which I won't know about.

On their 18th Birthdays, I'll introduce them to cryptography, and then give them the keys to the house/logfiles :) .

[[gh]Spurty]

I don't want them to think I don't trust them.
For the hard of thinking, its those I don't know that I don't trust or care about. :roll:

[Soxmls35]

I log my conversations on aim and irc. I use to use trillian to log my IM conversations but lately I haven't been using any of the others since AIM so I switched to aim + dead aim. The only problem is you have to wait to update your AIM till deadaim gets a version that works with the current one.

[kud0z]

AND someone cracks J. Dennis's new way of protection on DeadAim. He was an idiot to make you have to pay for it.

[darien]

A few points to clarify, then my response to the original question.

There should be no assumption of privacy using any internet-based communicatoin system (instant message, email, forums, etc) unless you have previously encrypted your message in such a way that only the intended receiving party could decrypt it. If you believe otherwise, well, I feel sorry for you.
IM is not unique in the opportunities it presents for children to get into trouble. There are plenty of other just-as-dangerous ways that a minor might intentionally or accidentally give out "too much" personal information. The teaching begins at home with what level of interaction a child should have with any other person -- be it an adult, another child, a police officer, doctor, or anyone.
Monitoring IMs becomes more difficult as each generation develops new lingo for communicating -- leaving the previous generation scratching their heads. How many of your parents could decode "i r 1337 h@ck3r cu @ teh b0wl1ng LE @ 10." easily? Or, what about this: "V nz n yrrg unpxre. Frr lbh ng gur objyvat nyyrl ng 10."
Parents, who talk _to_ their kids about their own childhood, concerns, stories, and daily interactions with people, both good and bad, are more likely to have children who talk back when they stumble across something that doesn't feel right -- like strange questions coming from another "kid" in the pre-teen chatroom. Parents who talk _at_ their kids, or lecture them without sharing personal experiences, are more likely to encounter resistance when they ask the kids what's been going on.
I have two boys, ages 15 and 13. They've both used computers in evey way imaginable since they were able. I have enough experience to to make the preceeding statements.

[Canon]

[list] There should be no assumption of privacy using any internet-based communicatoin system (instant message, email, forums, etc) unless you have previously encrypted your message in such a way that only the intended receiving party could decrypt it. If you believe otherwise, well, I feel sorry for you.

That unless isn't really an "unless". You can take *some* comfort in the fact that you've encrypted your data... but that sure as hell doesn't mean that it will 100% stop some errant individual who wants it.

[SavaThePriest]

Or, what about this: "V nz n yrrg unpxre. Frr lbh ng gur objyvat nyyrl ng 10.

Jesus, I'm part of this young-ish generation and I can't even decypher that.

[Kamie]

Here are my views on this:

1.) A child under the age of 10 should not be allowed on the computer without supervision. I am sorry, but parents should know what their young kids are looking at online when they are so impressionable.

2.) For kids who are over the age of 10 or so, the parents need to talk to their kids about the good and bad of the internet. I don't think kids should be blocked from the internet, but they need to know what dangers are out there. And there need to be some rules (ie do not give out your phone number to someone you do not know from real life...ect).

3.) Logging. I don't know if I would do that or not. I hope that I would trust my kids with that, but if I felt like they were in danger, I may feel otherwise.

[blue]

i sometime share the same concern as spurty and many other "to-be-parents". how obsolete will i be when my kids come around?

LOL will YOU<-- be obsolete? thats the funniest thing i have ever heard... did you mean it like that? lol

[unrequited]

For the flip side and the privacy concerned, vanilla AIM lets you use security certificates to encrypt your outgoing IMs... that's what those little lock icons are if you have any buddies with them.

[Community Nub Shauce]

as for conerned about kids and sexual abusers and stuff... in my opinion its all about how you bring up your kid. My dad was very strict in a way, ive hated it all my life, but i realize i have values that are very important and i know what to do if i get into trouble. You definately should not limit your child and "spy" on them. What tahts gonna do is piss them off (trust me i know) and want to do it even more, because t he trust thing is gone.

You want to establish a line of trust, you want to beable to have your kid want to talk to you about things and what he should do, thats what me and my dad do and its really great. Never "Spy" on your children. Purposely go through their stuff, log aim chats, etc etc. Instead just talk to them. Asking questions is ok, but spying on them without their knowledge will make matters worse.

[nOOB]

So I miss read a post... but i am still going to post this anyways.

Sputry's first post, the first time i read it, made it sound as if no IRC logs where kept. In fact he didnt say that but for the misinformed. IRC servers can keep very big log files. So can IRC cleints.

For Example: when HL2 source was "leaked" the first leaked files were found with in an hour or two on a few different network logs. I have personally seen the logs. They were posted on the net. This help to in fact catch the people responible only a mater of days later, according to the police report anyways.

AIM can very simplely be watched. Hell, Any IM/IRC that isnt encypted is very simple to watch. Packet sniffing is soooo easy now days that all you need to know how to do is install a program. In fact, I have used some programs to "hack" my self. To see if code I wrote was secure or not.

Lastly the thing to remember about the internet is this: Anything, i do mean anything (server, government or whatever), can be hacked given enough time.

[Canon]

If the kid sets up a proxy server I don't think net-nanny is your primary concern.

[Tim-The-Enchanter]

I saw this program on the Screen Savers last night. If you are going to "spy" on your kids, this IS the way to do it. The program is called Spector Pro 5.0 and it is $99. You can find it here: http://www.spectorsoft.com/

When it is running it doesn't even show up in the process list. You set up a hot key to open the password screen to view the logs. It keeps track of everything the computer was used for. The eBlaster verson emails the logs to you.

Records Emails, Chats, IMs, Web Sites, Programs Run, Keystrokes Typed, Peer to Peer File Sharing, Screen Snapshots - Plus - Offers Internet Access Blocking and Instant Notification Alerts.

I was impressed by how easy they made the program to use. Like if you wanted to just look at their AIM conversation with 1 person, you didn't have to dig through a masive file of all conversations for the day. Just go to the day, AIM, and the screenname.

I'm still undecided if I would use something like this or not. Remember, just because you set it up doesn't mean that you have to "spy" on them when there isn't any concern. But, if anything bad ever happened to your kids (or you think something might), it would be nice to be able to go back and get information like this if it would help.

But, it would be hard to keep the program secret from your kids. How could you explain how you know about things that you shouldn't? What would they think when porn site they looked at yesterday is magically blocked today? If you told them about it, they are just gonna get pissed (I know I would've).