The Underground History of American Education

[Uthor]

Okay, I'm posting this in the debate forum cause I know a debate will break out over it.

This is a book (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm) (you can read it in its entirity) written by John Taylor Gatto, a retired teacher of 30 years in the public school system. He is trying to figure out why schools are seemingly inefficient mass leveling systems that seem to groom students for a life of being underlings who follow orders blindly from bosses.

The prologue (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/prologue_print.html) describes the main problems that Gatto sees and a brief outline how he believes the school system has come t obe this way.

I'm currently on chapter 3 and am engrossed in the thing (I just ****in' hate reading book on my computer screen). I think I'm gonna buy his other book (Dumbing Us Down) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D086571231X/102-5234262-7136932) off of Amazon.com next time I place an order. I don't agree 100% with everything said here, but it sure gets you thinking, espessially in terms of my future kids (which I am in the proccess of not having).

I espessially don't agree that the reason schools are the way they are is the result of a vast conspiracy, but more a product of politicians who do not fully understand or grasp the problems with the school system making things worse when trying to fix it (*cough* No Child Left Behind *cough*).

The reviews for Dumbing Us Down complain that Gatto offers no solutions. I haven't gotten nearly that far in this book, but the last chapter in this book appears to have some. Hopefully I'm not wrong and will be able to see what Gatto thinks the solutions are. It seems he has another book or two out that deal more with reform that I might also check out.

I think everybody, but espessially those with children, should check out this book. At least give the prologue (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/prologue_print.html) a try. At least it will show (or reaffirm) how important it is to teach non-conformity and free thinking to your children.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

[ThriKreen]

I think one problem with the school systems is how they weigh the student's achievements based on an average of all subjects, instead of letting them specialize in an area he or she likes. I mean, I can understand teaching all subjects up to junior high, to give them a taste of everything. But start dividing the kids up in high school based on their interests - don't wait til they're in University/College to let them specialize.

Like, I'm an artist/tech geek type, so my areas are computer programming and art. Stick me in music, calculus, GYM, or history, and I won't do as well. Yet my school system in Ontario forces me to take certain compulsory courses to fill up requirements, and of course, my lower performance in those areas brings the average down, making one seem not as 'smart'.

Not to mention the removal of grade 13 a couple years ago, so students are going to University/College a year earlier. It's as if they're just interested in just churning out graduates like some mass production facility.

[krazyjuice]

Students have a general lack of motivation. Younglings think anyone can get a job right out of highschool and college =/

[Nefarious]

Students have a general lack of motivation. Younglings think anyone can get a job right out of highschool and college =/

im motivated and dont think i will get a job right out of high school/college

[SavaThePriest]

Thri: I'm still in the high school system in Ontario (just entering 12 now), and once you pass grade 10, courses really aren't that mandatory.

In grade 11, the only mandatory courses you have to take are English and a math course. In grade 12, just English. When you apply to university, they just take your top 6 university-level courses in grade 12, so you don't even have to submit English if you don't want to. (Sidenote: I've heard mentions about having to submit English and 5 other marks, but it makes no sense to me because English is one of the most subjective courses (besides any art course)).

As for the elimination of grade 13, that is merely a cost-cutting issue. You don't need as many teachers if there aren't as many students.

[ThriKreen]

Yeah, I graduated from high school 10 years ago (gawd I feel old now), so undoubtedly it's changed. When I was in high school, the requirements were 30 credits to graduate, and to get an OAC diploma (Gr13) you need 6 OAC credits.

I had to load up on some courses like creative writing and chemistry which aren't my interests to pad up to the requirement. =(

[SavaThePriest]

Thri: the following is taken from a course selection book.

Ontario Secondary School Diploma (OSSD)

30 credits required for graduation:
18 compulsory and 12 optional

4 English, one per grade level
1 French (Usually taken in grade 9)
3 Mathematics (9, 10, 11 usually)
2 Science (9, 10 usually)
1 Cdn. Geography (9)
1 Cdn. History (10)
1 Arts (drama, art, music, etc; grade 9)
1 Phys-Ed
0.5 Civics / 0.5 Careers (2 half-courses taken as a pair in grade 10)

One course within each of the following groups (i.e 1 from group 1, 1 from group 2, 1 from group 3):

Group 1
Additional English credit
Third Language (I took beginner's spanish, covered this)
Social Science
Canadian and World Studies

Group 2
Business Studies
Phys-Ed
Arts (Took grade 11 Computer Arts)

Group 3
Grade 11 or 12 Science
Technological Studies (basically, shop class) (Took grade 9 shop)


I'm now entering grade 12, and the only course I have to cover is English. The rest are optional.

[Community Nub Shauce]

Check out North Central Public School (located in indianapolis, IN). We're the only school in Indiana to get mention in U.S News Weekly magazine as being something around the 104th best school in the nation.

[krazyjuice]

Nef, in general doesn't mean that everyone is that way.

[PC_CONQUERER]

Part of the promblem for schools is it needs more seperation, seperate the students that care and want to get ahead from the students that don't care as much, another promblem is bad teachers/principals, I am lucky in the fact i found a program for accelerated students with students who care and an actuall teaching staff that cares and who can teach. It is pretty hard to find out about... but it is a state funded school that people apply for, take tests to get in, and the high school students live at the school in a dorm... I have learned more at this school in 1 quarter of a year than i learned my last two years of school at my old school. The biggest promblem for most schools is just a lack of motivation for both students and staff/ not intelligent staff.

[nOOB]

You see... vast conspiracy is a problem. Just like in the Government system. I could go into my life story sitting many examples of coruption in my district but I will spear you all. Feel free to ask on IRC if you want to know more... One good example of some of the crap that happens in my district is there is a kid in one of the elementry schools who has brought knives and meat tenderisers to school. Under current rules of the bored/district he should have been expelled. Well he hasnt been because he is related to or payed off someone on the school bored.

Now. My mother has been on the school bored to try and help things but it was a somewhat wasted effort. Our district has one of the worst standerised test scores in WI. She was pushing for better teaching methods in our schools and short after being elected was labeled a Nasi. We just spent 15million on additions to our highschool and cut classes to pay for it....

I have first hand know of the problems with schools these days. Most of witch deal will people filling their pockets and not caring of the students. I am not saying everyone is bad. But i would say a majority are.

Questions?

[nOOB]

One other thing. I have dyslexia. I have it very bad. I can by with out much problem. Currently a Sr. in college. I have been tested many times and with out any doubt in my mind, I have it. My school distric, to this day, claims I do not have it. They cheated durning their test of me and conculed i didnt have it.

Durning my HS life, I couldnt get less then a C. I could do nothing and still would get a C. I finished HS with a 3.5gpa.

[Canon]

don't wait til they're in their second year of University/College to let them specialize.

[nOOB]

hrmm. I didnt have that problem. I stated takeing classes for my major/minor my first semster in college. It took me longer to get my general classes done but eh.. it was worth it. But yes i agree with that statment.

[Doc Wattson]

What forms of Dyselxia do you have n00B?

-Gary-

[SavaThePriest]

Part of the promblem for schools is it needs more seperation, seperate the students that care and want to get ahead from the students that don't care as much

I understand what you are saying, and I agree completely, but I've been told by a teacher (who taught the enriched grade 9 science class I was in) why they don't.

Basically, they are trying to create balance. Sure, they could try to put all the brightest people in one or two classes and let them succeed, but this cause all the idiots to be grouped together. When there is a range of intelligence in a class, it helps the ones that aren't quite as bright to succeed, even though this slows the development of the smarter ones. We either groom a society of some really smart people and a greater number of idiots, or we try to bring up the lesser ones in order to become complete and functional members of society.

Or something like that.

[nOOB]

What forms of Dyselxia do you have n00B?

-Gary-

After the years of stuff I have went through. I only know of one form. Dyslexia is a reading and writting disablitiy. Basiclly the left and rigfht side of the brain fight for dominance. It make people write things backwards and see things. It also has an affect on reading and writting ablility. It has many different affects to people. It is a fairly common disablility too. A major of people have it slightly... well have it very very bad. I am a Sr. in college i read around a 9th grade level and spell at a about a 7th grade level. No i am not lazey. I am currently enrolled in somthing called "Project Sucess" that helps college students with disablities. I have been being tutored since 3rd grade on and off again.

so yeah... the very short version of my life story... sorry...

[Doc Wattson]

n00b, I have Dysllexia also. I have six forms. I spent my whole childhood getting testined and spent 6 years in a special education school, Stephen Gaynor (http://www.sgaynor.com/).

You pretty much got what Dsylexia is. You have two halves of your brian, each better at different things. People usally refer to one half artisitc and the other mathmatical but that is oversimplifiction. Dyslexia is when the wrong half of the brain gets information and the results it shoots out are different from what the other half would. Only one form of Dsylexia makes people read backwords. Most people have dsylexia but to a small degree.

-Gary-

[nOOB]

To tell the truth... I have dyslexia, dysnoma, and dysgraphia.... One is reading/writting. One is deals with hand writting. And lasly picking the right words for when writting/speaking. That is very over simplfied but... My point is that my school really didnt care that i had all this. My college on the other had is very supportive. The teachers in HS were nice but didnt really care where as my college profs well help at all cost.


I am not saying that the no child left behind is good but I do like that it puts responsbility on the schools to teach. If the school fails to teach that is the problem i have with it.. but i dont know the bill all that well. If i can get high marks on the standeredized test any can.

[Uthor]

Part of the promblem for schools is it needs more seperation, seperate the students that care and want to get ahead from the students that don't care as much

I understand what you are saying, and I agree completely, but I've been told by a teacher (who taught the enriched grade 9 science class I was in) why they don't.

Basically, they are trying to create balance. Sure, they could try to put all the brightest people in one or two classes and let them succeed, but this cause all the idiots to be grouped together. When there is a range of intelligence in a class, it helps the ones that aren't quite as bright to succeed, even though this slows the development of the smarter ones. We either groom a society of some really smart people and a greater number of idiots, or we try to bring up the lesser ones in order to become complete and functional members of society.


Or something like that.

Isn't the question to ask "why do some students not care?" Or more so, "why does the majority of students not care?" There's a bigger problem with not teaching the "smart students" all you can. It comes from teaching tedious material that kills a love of learning/thinking/reading/etc.

And I don't think it's that teachers don't care. Teachers, after a few years, begin to recognize that they are not allowed to teach, just prepare students to take stadarized tests, which promote memorization, not thinking. Hell, I wasted an entire year in High School learning to write a 5 paragraph essay (topic paragraph, 3 supporting paragraphs, conclusion, no more, no less, each paragraph must have one poitn with an intro, 2-3 sentences of support, and a transition to the next). Ever since then, I was told that if I wrote that way, I'd be failed.